Usually, when attempting to use a scroll that was crafted by herself, a spellcaster simply activates it, as she can read her own runes without a check involved and she also already meets all other requirements for the activation of the scroll.
- The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
- The user must have the spell on her class list.
- The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check.
Now, let's suppose that, instead, a Cleric and a Wizard collaborate in order to meet the requirements for crafting a Mage Armor Scroll. The Cleric provides the Scribe Scroll Feat, and the Wizard provides the Mage Armor Spell, including all needed materials to cast it; after a couple of hours, they're done crafting the scroll.
My question is, when either attempts to use the scroll they crafted together does she get to freely activate the scroll or is there any check needed?. I would rule it like this:
- The Cleric should be able to read the scroll with no checks involved as it was she who wrote the spell on the parchment. However, she would need a UMD check to use the scroll, as the spell is not on her class spell list. Additionally, she may need to perform a second UMD check if she does not have a high enough intelligence score.
- The Wizard should initially need to perform a UMD check to decipher the scroll. However, after this, she should be able to activate the scroll with no additional checks needed, as she meets all other requirements.
Did I miss anything?. I get a little confused with the bit stating that, in order to use a scroll, "the spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine)...". Can UMD be used to bypass this, or does this point prevent the Wizard from using that scroll altogether?
Thanks in advance!
The cleric cannot craft a scroll unless the spell is on the clerics spell list. Having another provide the spell does not bypass this limitation.
If you have a cleric with mage armour added to their spell list they could craft a divine scroll of mage armour, but they could not provide the spell for another cleric to craft a scroll unless that cleric also had mage armour added to it's spell list.
In that instance you would have a divine scroll of mage armour and so a wizard would need UMD to cast it. A normal cleric would also need to UMD the scroll as mage armour is not on their spell list. Only the hypothetical cleric with mage armour on their spell list could use the divine scroll without UMD.
The cleric cannot craft a scroll unless the spell is on the clerics spell list. Having another provide the spell does not bypass this limitation.Incorrect. For about the 50th time.
Maybe, I could be conflating rules somewhere. IF I am wrong it's not a bad houserule for scrolls though, because it doesn't change the rest of it. You end up with a divine scroll of mage armour. Everybody needs to UMD it unless you happen to be a cleric (or other divine caster) with the spell on your spell list.
(The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
Just getting back from the office, thanks for your replies, guys.
I did do a little research and dug throughout the rules forums before posting my initial comment. There's quite a few threads dealing with related topics and most get a bit convoluted, to say the least.
I did think, however, that the issue about characters being able to craft scrolls conjointly was already settled, as _Ozy_ points out when citing the Cooperative Crafting rules. Is it safe to assume both RAW and RAI agree on this issue?
Now, returning to my original question, did I get anything wrong with the way I would rule it?
- The Cleric should be able to read the scroll with no checks involved as it was she who wrote the spell on the parchment. However, she would need a UMD check to use the scroll, as the spell is not on her class spell list. Additionally, she may need to perform a second UMD check if she does not have a high enough intelligence score.
- The Wizard should initially need to perform a UMD check to decipher the scroll. However, after this, she should be able to activate the scroll with no additional checks needed, as she meets all other requirements.
For the Wizard in the example, I'm pretty sure he can just cast read magic to read the scroll. Or use Spellcraft. So he shouldn't need UMD at all.
You're right, that's a much better option.
Usually, when attempting to use a scroll that was crafted by herself, a spellcaster simply activates it, as she can read her own runes without a check involved and she also already meets all other requirements for the activation of the scroll.
If the scroll was made using a spell source she could not cast herself, then she does not meet the requirements.
If the scroll is of a caster level she cannot cast at, then she does not meet the requirements. Some GMs limit magic item creation to CL, but that is not actually a rule for scrolls.
Now, let's suppose that, instead, a Cleric and a Wizard collaborate in order to meet the requirements for crafting a Mage Armor Scroll. The Cleric provides the Scribe Scroll Feat, and the Wizard provides the Mage Armor Spell, including all needed materials to cast it; after a couple of hours, they're done crafting the scroll.
Unlikely example. :-)
Wizards get Scribe Scroll at 1st, and Clerics need to spend a feat to get it.My question is, when either attempts to use the scroll they crafted together does she get to freely activate the scroll or is there any check needed?. I would rule it like this:
...
- The Cleric should be able to read the scroll with no checks involved as it was she who wrote the spell on the parchment. However, she would need a UMD check to use the scroll, as the spell is not on her class spell list. Additionally, she may need to perform a second UMD check if she does not have a high enough intelligence score.
- The Wizard should initially need to perform a UMD check to decipher the scroll. However, after this, she should be
All scrolls need to be read before use.
Your own writing is generally hand-waved to be an automatic thing. However, RAW is silent. Given that Read Magic is on cleric and wizard lists, this is not an unreasonable thing to assume.The simple scroll usage rules are:
* The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine).
* The user must have the spell on her class list.
* The user must have the requisite ability score.
UMD cannot fake the first rule, but it can the other two. Therefore, no caster can use the simple scroll usage rules if the scroll is the wrong type. Instead, they must use the UMD rules.
If you are a caster, you have a casting stat. If that stat is insufficient, you must UMD to make it sufficient for the spell level. You do not use the stat of the author of the scroll.
If you are not a caster, say a rogue, you don't have a casting stat. [Yet rogues are considered the most common users of UMD for casting.] I think the default is to use a casting stat mating the class assumed to have written the scroll. Wis for divine (i.e. Cleric/Druid) and Int for arcane (i.e. Wizard). If the spell is not on those lists, it goes by GM fiat. However, this default up to the GM.
If you are a caster, you have a spell list. UMD can be used to add this spell to the list for the purposes of casting this scroll.
If you are not a caster, this is not covered in the rules, but is generally played as if you had a spell list of zero spells that this gets added to. This UMD result also determines your effective caster level (unless your own is higher). If not sufficient to cast the scroll, nothing happens.
Maybe, I could be conflating rules somewhere. IF I am wrong it's not a bad houserule for scrolls though, because it doesn't change the rest of it. You end up with a divine scroll of mage armour. Everybody needs to UMD it unless you happen to be a cleric (or other divine caster) with the spell on your spell list.
This rule was in 1st edition. Clerics did cleric scrolls, druids did druid scrolls, illusionists did illusion scrolls, but wizards did all other kinds of scrolls including protection scrolls. Likewise, magic items were segmented off and wizards got everything else. 2nd edition got rid of that.
/cevah
Cevah, I think you might be confusing editions or something with scrolls and UMD, because I think you are a little off on how it works.
Before your edit, you said I needed to have the stat of the scroll and not my own casting stat. The text of UMD states: In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability.
What is the appropriate ability?
Is it the stat the crafter of the scroll used? That means the GM needs to know what class crafted every single scroll given as treasure or bought.
Is it my own casting stat? Why not, since the spell is [now] on my list.
Does a sorcerer (casting stat Cha) need Int to cast a wizard scroll? I have never had a GM ask for UMD in such a case. Ditto Oracle for a Cleric scroll.
Ease of play and record keeping implies UMD uses the UMD's own casting stat.
As to being a little off, please correct me. I've played 1st, 1.5 (UA), 2, 3.0, 3.5, 4, 5, and PF. Keeping it all strait can be difficult.
/cevah
Ugh, I was typeing out a whole chart and paizo ate my post. Give me one min. ;)
For scroll
Step A) Is the spell a the correct type of spell (divine/arcane/psychic) and on you spell list?
If yes: go to step B.
If no: make a UMD check DC = 20 + spell level. If you succeed go to step C.
Step B)
Is your caster level high enough?
If yes: Go to Step C.
If no: make a caster level check (caster level+ d20). The DC is the caster level of the scroll + 1.
Step C)
Do you have a high enough ability score (the ability used in casting for the class you are using)? (10+spell level)
If yes: congrats the spell works!
If no: make a UMD check. The DC is 15 + the number you need in that ability. (Or 25+spell level, doing the math)
If you fail any of these checks:
The scroll does not activate.
If you failed the caster level check, make a DC 5 wisdom check or you suffer a mishap. A natural one one this wisdom check always results in a mishap.
What the mishap is is up to your DM.
Before your edit, you said I needed to have the stat of the scroll and not my own casting stat. The text of UMD states: In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability.
What is the appropriate ability?
Is it the stat the crafter of the scroll used? That means the GM needs to know what class crafted every single scroll given as treasure or bought.
Is it my own casting stat? Why not, since the spell is [now] on my list.Does a sorcerer (casting stat Cha) need Int to cast a wizard scroll? I have never had a GM ask for UMD in such a case. Ditto Oracle for a Cleric scroll.
Ease of play and record keeping implies UMD uses the UMD's own casting stat.
As to being a little off, please correct me. I've played 1st, 1.5 (UA), 2, 3.0, 3.5, 4, 5, and PF. Keeping it all strait can be difficult.
/cevah
I have always viewed "requisite ability score" as the ability score used to create the scroll. But perhaps here I am wrong.
Rereading the UMD interactions, it seems I may have been confused as well.
That said:
The simple scroll usage rules are:
* The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine).
* The user must have the spell on her class list.
* The user must have the requisite ability score.UMD cannot fake the first rule, but it can the other two. Therefore, no caster can use the simple scroll usage rules if the scroll is the wrong type. Instead, they must use the UMD rules.
Could you not use the "emulate class feature" portion of UMD to emulate the feature X level divine/arcane/psychic casting? The DC would be 20+caster level.
As for ease of play, that's the main reason that PFS changed the rules for scrolls and wands, that way you don't have to keep track of who created them.
There are two ways to activate scrolls:
simple
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
* The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
* The user must have the spell on her class list.
* The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a scroll mishap. A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell’s casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. If the caster level check fails but no mishap occurs, the scroll is not expended.
Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.
The writing for an activated spell disappears from the scroll as the spell is cast.
Scroll Mishaps: When a mishap occurs, the spell on the scroll has a reversed or harmful effect. Possible mishaps are given below.
Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.
The way I read this is:
If the scroll is of the correct type, on list, and your stat is sufficient, no UMD check is needed. However, if the scroll is of a caster level greater than yours, you must make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast. If this CL check fails, then a DC 5 Wisdom check is made to avoid a mishap.
If the scroll is of the wrong type, off list, or your stat is too low, you must UMD. This is done with a DC 20+CL of the scroll. You must either have sufficient casting stat or UMD it (DC=15+stat) also. If you make the UMD check, the spell is cast. If you fail, nothing happens. There is zero chance of a mishap, because you are not using the simple rules but the UMD rules.
/cevah
Could you not use the "emulate class feature" portion of UMD to emulate the feature X level divine/arcane/psychic casting? The DC would be 20+caster level.
If you did, then you would also [probably] have to make the CL check, since your CL in that class is 0. And I think you would need to have that class's stat as well for the cast. In the end, you make more checks. It might be OK, but I would take some convincing.
/cevah
Could you not use the "emulate class feature" portion of UMD to emulate the feature X level divine/arcane/psychic casting? The DC would be 20+caster level.If you did, then you would also [probably] have to make the CL check, since your CL in that class is 0. And I think you would need to have that class's stat as well for the cast. In the end, you make more checks. It might be OK, but I would take some convincing.
/cevah
I would assume that the caster level requirement would be met with the same UMD roll because:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20.
If for the purposes of activating a scroll you are effectively say a "11th level wizard". Then you should, for the purposes of activating the scroll be treated as having a caster level of 11. Right?
I agree that you would possibly need to make a second UMD check if your inteligence was not high enough.
So did some digging as to what was meant by requisite ability score, and found nothing official from Paizo. But I did find the next best thing, something from 3.5 over at Wizards. It looks like your interpretation of "requisite ability score" is correct Cevah.
It is based off the caster not the creator. Or at least it is in the examples they gave. And baring anything to the contrary from Paizo, this is how I will be running it in the future.
...It looks like your interpretation ... is correct...
Awww...
Makes me feel warm and fuzzy. :-)/cevah
...It looks like your interpretation ... is correct...Awww...
Makes me feel warm and fuzzy. :-)/cevah
I would rather get to the right answer than be right myself.
:-)
Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells).What's the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer spell? Are there any that are on one list but not the other?
At least one (Mnemonic Enhancer). I'm not sure if there are any others, however.
Edit: And indeed there are. Blood Transcription and Mage's Lucubration.
If the scroll was made using a spell source she could not cast herself, then she does not meet the requirements.
If the scroll is of a caster level she cannot cast at, then she does not meet the requirements. Some GMs limit magic item creation to CL, but that is not actually a rule for scrolls.
I thought my text was clear enough, but let me clarify it nonetheless. When I wrote the spell caster crafted the scroll herself, I meant herself alone, with no help of external sources.
If she was already able to craft the scroll that way, I think it is safe to assume she meets all three prerequisites. Also, no need to linger here as this is fairly irrelevant to my actual questions.
Unlikely example. :-)
Again, this is not that relevant. And yes, I do realize its a unlikely example, as you put it, however, it can happen. Just use any other arcane caster that doesn't get Scribe Scroll; lets suppose its a Magus instead of a Wizard.
All scrolls need to be read before use.
Your own writing is generally hand-waved to be an automatic thing. However, RAW is silent. Given that Read Magic is on cleric and wizard lists, this is not an unreasonable thing to assume.
This is another thing I assumed was already settled in the community.
On pages 218-219 of the Core Rulebook you can find the rules for Arcane Magical Writing where it states the next about deciphering magical writing:
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.
Emphasis mine. I take this to mean spellcasters CAN read their own writing, which is also kind of logical if you think about it.
As for the Read Magic spell appearing on the Cleric and Wizard's lists, you must understand the use of this spell is not restricted to scrolls, so its perfectly logical that both have it.
Read magic can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
Now, I got a little (a lot, really) confused with the next and haven't found a satisfying RAW answer:
The simple scroll usage rules are:
* The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine).
* The user must have the spell on her class list.
* The user must have the requisite ability score.UMD cannot fake the first rule, but it can the other two. Therefore, no caster can use the simple scroll usage rules if the scroll is the wrong type. Instead, they must use the UMD rules.
Does this mean rogues and other non-casters cannot use scrolls altogether?. As you mention, UMD can be used to bypass the last two rules, but what about the first one?. Rogues and other non-casters don't have a "correct type" of magic.
Also, on the same line of reasoning, a caster can never activate a scroll of the wrong type. No way of getting around this.
I am pretty sure I am missing something here but I am unable to find a RAW answer to contradict this. Perhaps its a wrong assumption that I've had since forever and was too ingrained and I had never actually questioned it.
Any help is appreciated, I might actually create a new thread to deal with this.
Cheers!
Edit: Just corrected some grammar stuff. English is not my first language.
My interpretation of this:
* The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine).
is that 'for your class' should be appended on the end of it.
So, if you're not an arcane caster because you're a cleric (or a non-caster), you must use UMD to emulate the appropriate class.
It does seem a little redundant with the class list requirement.
Thanks for a quick reply. This was also my interpretation for many years. However, nowhere in the UMD description for using scrolls does it state that you can "emulate a class/type", only emulate having the spell on your class list or emulate having a high enough ability score.
If the scroll was made using a spell source she could not cast herself, then she does not meet the requirements.
If the scroll is of a caster level she cannot cast at, then she does not meet the requirements. Some GMs limit magic item creation to CL, but that is not actually a rule for scrolls.
I thought my text was clear enough, but let me clarify it nonetheless. When I wrote the spell caster crafted the scroll herself, I meant herself alone, with no help of external sources.
If she was already able to craft the scroll that way, I think it is safe to assume she meets all three prerequisites. Also, no need to linger here as this is fairly irrelevant to my actual questions.
You were clear enough.
However, if a cleric goes off to the scriptorium (writing room) of the local monastery, for peace and quiet, and is carrying a ring of spell storing holding an off list spell, then the cleric can create a scroll of that spell. While this does require someone to put the spell in the ring at some point, it could be found as treasure with the spell already in it. Creating a scroll at this time does not need outside assistance. If you want to exclude supplying the spell via items, then you can exclude this.Making a scroll of a prepared spell, but a a higher level than can be cast is also RAW a legal option, I think. This uses the cleric's own spell. However, trying to cast this spell would not be automatic due to the higher level. It also costs more, but I think this satisfies your do-it-all-by-yourself limit.
Now, I got a little (a lot, really) confused with the next and haven't found a satisfying RAW answer:
The simple scroll usage rules are:
* The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine).
* The user must have the spell on her class list.
* The user must have the requisite ability score.UMD cannot fake the first rule, but it can the other two. Therefore, no caster can use the simple scroll usage rules if the scroll is the wrong type. Instead, they must use the UMD rules.
Does this mean rogues and other non-casters cannot use scrolls altogether?. As you mention, UMD can be used to bypass the last two rules, but what about the first one?. Rogues and other non-casters don't have a "correct type" of magic.
Also, on the same line of reasoning, a caster can never activate a scroll of the wrong type. No way of getting around this.
I am pretty sure I am missing something here but I am unable to find a RAW answer to contradict this. Perhaps its a wrong assumption that I've had since forever and was too ingrained and I had never actually questioned it.
Any help is appreciated, I might actually create a new thread to deal with this.
That UMD is unable to bypass the correct type, just means you cannot use the simple rules to cast the spell. You need to use the pure UMD rules. This means that a cleric can use a wizard scroll, but only with the UMD rules. UMD allows *anybody* to do this. Note the DC for caster level is much lower for the simple rules. That is a major reason to use it when you can.
As to rogues and casting scrolls, that was in 1st edition. Legends imply this as a major ability of the class in just about every fantasy setting. In second edition, this was moved from the core into the HLO: Skills & Powers book. In 3rd edition, it states: In addition, while not capable of casting spells on their own, rogues can "fake it" well enough to cast spells from scrolls,.... Third had no actual class support for this, so all assumed it was done via the UMD skill. PF does not include this fluff text in their description of the rogue. The UMD skill's "Use a Scroll" is essentially the same text, however, so there is no reason to think rogues cannot do this.
The problem is in the casting stat. Which is it? Is it the prime stat for the class? The prime mental stat for the class? Charisma as the default stat for monsters? The stat of the scroll's creator? RAW is silent on this. I have usually gone with the stat of the scrolls creator unless there was a compelling reason. [Usually if the rogue is a multiclassed caster, then I would go with the caster class's stat.]
/cevah
You were clear enough.
However, if a cleric goes off to the scriptorium (writing room) of the local monastery, for peace and quiet, and is carrying a ring of spell storing holding an off list spell, then the cleric can create a scroll of that spell. While this does require someone to put the spell in the ring at some point, it could be found as treasure with the spell already in it. Creating a scroll at this time does not need outside assistance. If you want to exclude supplying the spell via items, then you can exclude this.
I believe this would count as a external source. And, again, you're focusing on the wrong part of my argument. I do appreciate you attempting to answer my question, don't get me wrong but, honestly, I feel this is just over-complicating the matter.
Making a scroll of a prepared spell, but a a higher level than can be cast is also RAW a legal option, I think.
Please forgive my ignorance, but I don't quite grab this concept. Could you use a practical example?, this actually sounds very interesting.
As to rogues and casting scrolls, that was in 1st edition. Legends imply this as a major ability of the class in just about every fantasy setting. In second edition, this was moved from the core into the HLO: Skills & Powers book. In 3rd edition, it states: In addition, while not capable of casting spells on their own, rogues can "fake it" well enough to cast spells from scrolls,.... Third had no actual class support for this, so all assumed it was done via the UMD skill. PF does not include this fluff text in their description of the rogue. The UMD skill's "Use a Scroll" is essentially the same text, however, so there is no reason to think rogues cannot do this.
Yeah, we get it, you go way back *tongue in cheek*
So, just to clarify. Is there nothing as per RAW in Pathfinder that allows non-casters to activate scrolls?.
The way I understood your text, we are all relying on fluff text from a book of another company to allow rogues to activate scrolls. Which is perfectly fine, I agree with you this may be the RAI, given PF origins.
It just sucks that this has to work out this way. As I stated in a different thread with a similar conclusion, this rulebook should be able to stand on its own. It is quite impractical to need to consult a previous/different rulebook and ponder on the intentions of the designers to be able to make out a ruling.
Making a scroll of a prepared spell, but a a higher level than can be cast is also RAW a legal option, I think.Please forgive my ignorance, but I don't quite grab this concept. Could you use a practical example?, this actually sounds very interesting.
The PRD states: A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. It states nothing about a maximum caster level. Many GMs will cap it to your level as a house rule. It also states: The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item.
Say your class level is 5. You want to make a scroll of Dispel Magic (level 3) at caster level 5. The price of the scroll is 3*5*25=375. The DC is 5+5=10.
You could instead scribe it at caster level 10. The price would be 3*10*25=750, and the DC would be 5+10=15. You pay more and have to be a better crafter to do this. I am not aware of a RAW prohibition of this.
As to rogues and casting scrolls, that was in 1st edition. Legends imply this as a major ability of the class in just about every fantasy setting. In second edition, this was moved from the core into the HLO: Skills & Powers book. In 3rd edition, it states: In addition, while not capable of casting spells on their own, rogues can "fake it" well enough to cast spells from scrolls,.... Third had no actual class support for this, so all assumed it was done via the UMD skill. PF does not include this fluff text in their description of the rogue. The UMD skill's "Use a Scroll" is essentially the same text, however, so there is no reason to think rogues cannot do this.Yeah, we get it, you go way back *tongue in cheek*
Am I a grognard? Check. :-)
So, just to clarify. Is there nothing as per RAW in Pathfinder that allows non-casters to activate scrolls?.
UMD is the explicit way for *anybody* to activate scrolls.
The way I understood your text, we are all relying on fluff text from a book of another company to allow rogues to activate scrolls. Which is perfectly fine, I agree with you this may be the RAI, given PF origins.
It just sucks that this has to work out this way. As I stated in a different thread with a similar conclusion, this rulebook should be able to stand on its own. It is quite impractical to need to consult a previous/different rulebook and ponder on the intentions of the designers to be able to make out a ruling.
Agreed. In first edition, activating a scroll was a percent chance thing for a thief. Either it worked or it didn't. Second edition was the same. It was in third where the idea of a casting stat came in, and the ability was made into the UMD skill. However, they did not close the loop and define a casting stat for a non-caster. PF copied third, and also left the hole.
/cevah