What do low level Investigators do in combat?

[glass]

I am trying to build a level 2 investigator (for PFS), and while I am primarily doing it for the skills and other utility stuff, I need to be able to do something vaguely useful when my turn comes round in combat.

And until Studied Strike and Studied Combat kick in at level 4, the Investigator has basically zero* combat abilities AFAICT.

Am I missing something? Or am I stuck with not being able to hit a cows arse with a banjo...and doing negligible damage even if I did manage to land a hit?

EDIT: IOW, how do I build a level 2, PFS legal Investigator who can contribute in combat without taking away from being awesome at skills etc?

_
glass.

(* Technically, inspiration can be used to augment attack rolls but until later levels there aren't enough points to do that enough to help...and that precludes using them for skills which is kinda the point of being an Investigator in the first place.)

[Nohwear]

If you can risk getting hit, there is always the aid another action. It is an often over looked option that can still be effective if the party does not spread out too much.

[PossibleCabbage]

This is largely why the one level dip in the inspired blade swashbuckler is extremely popular for investigators. Not because it helps that much once you get studied combat/strike, etc. but because it gives you something you can do in combat before you're level 4.

[PCScipio]

A lvl 1 18 Strength Investigator has +4 to attack and does 1d8+6 damage with a longspear.

[Wheldrake]

Yeah, I just don't get this sort of question. You can be "viable" in combat even if you aren't a greatsword-wielding bodybuilder. A 14 STR spear wielder doing +2 hit 1d6+2 damage is still "viable" or "vaguely useful".

The real difference is where you stand, what you say, what "spin" you put on the combat rolls. And how well you die. <g>

[lemeres]

PCScipio wrote:

A lvl 1 18 Strength Investigator has +4 to attack and does 1d8+6 damage with a longspear.

Yeah, that is the main problem here. If you pick a class with gradual build up of features and pick a dex based style that needs time to set up, then yes, you will not be useful at low levels. You simply have to suffer until your theorycrafting gets to fruition.

But if you pick the style that works right out of the box, then you will do "As well as anyone that isn't a barbarian". Str build isn't the flashiest, but it works well enough.

[glass]

Nohwear wrote:

If you can risk getting hit, there is always the aid another action. It is an often over looked option that can still be effective if the party does not spread out too much.

Thanks, I hadn't thought of that. Not the most impressive ever use of a standard action, but at least its something.

PCScipio wrote:

A lvl 1 18 Strength Investigator has +4 to attack and does 1d8+6 damage with a longspear.

That would seem to come under "without taking away from being awesome at skills". Not to mention that would preclude even a modest investment in Dex & Con on an already-fragile character going in to melee.

_
glass.

[taks]

Keep in mind, you're probably identifying all the critters you face better than most/anyone, too.

[taks]

Wizards are even worse at 1st, btw.

[PCScipio]

glass wrote:

That would seem to come under "without taking away from being awesome at skills". Not to mention that would preclude even a modest investment in Dex & Con on an already-fragile character going in to melee.

This is my PFS Empiricist's starting stats:

Dual Talent Human
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Char 8

Feat: Combat Reflexes
Traits: Student of Philosophy + one other (can't remember right now)

He has been is very good at skills and good in combat.

[Ierox]

In short, the answer is either relying on 14+ strength and Enlarge Person extracts, or starting out with a level of Inspired Blade.

Even 14 str + morningstar + enlarge person is sick damage.

That said, if you really don't want to be strength based, just start out with a level of inspired blade swashbuckler, go dex=int>con>cha=10>str>wis

Non-optimized, that's

Elf
str10
Dex18
Con12
Int17
Wis10
Cha10

Optimized, you're probably a wayang instead. Being small without a str penalty, you can afford to dump str, and being an optimizer, you also dump wisdom.

Either way, your first level feat is Fencing Grace, ensuring you deal 1d6 or 1d4 + dex damage, which is more than plenty.

Then you start taking investigator levels.

[RealAlchemy]

Since I built for archery, at low levels in combat my empiricist investigator identified the monster and fired a short bow at it. And used inspirational expertise to give everybody a one round bonus to hit.

[Ierox]

Honestly, archery is probably going to have the toughest startup for an investigator.

[Wheldrake]

Ierox wrote:

Honestly, archery is probably going to have the toughest startup for an investigator.

Why?

All you need is a good DEX, and you're good to go. You don't *have* to have tons of feats to optimise archery if we're talking about low-level action (before level 4).

I created a level 1 Elf wizard, 16 dex, so he was +3 1d8 longbow right out of the gate. Surely this investigator could equal or surpass that. And it's not too shabby for low-level action.

[Ierox]

Given Investigator proficiencies, you're either using a shortbow, or you don't have precise shot (and won't until level 3). That puts a heavy lid on what you can really do.

Personally, I'd want at least 6.5 ish average damage on a hit at level 1. Below that it starts being a little useless.

[Chess Pwn]

I'm going to echo the str build. My empiricist dual minded half-elf was
16+2
14
13
16
7
7

lv4 bump con, lv8 bump wis. will save was fine with the +2 from race and a strong will progression. Went the half-elf FCB for bonuses to inspiration rolls. all skills are int based so wis and cha not needed. I took armor expert trait. lv3 get mutagen, lv4 is barkskin and studied combat. My damage was awesome like a barb, accuracy was great, AC was amazing and skills were set well too. With heightened awareness and heroism plus your inspiration my skills were rocking. 1 rank in a knowledge is 1+3+4+2+2+1d8+2 by level 8 that's 14+1d8 off of one rank. Then I went inspired and fortuitous on my longspear, letting me get 1d8+2 to my attack rolls and double that to damage. Plus getting a full attack off any AoO.

yeah, he was lots of fun.

[Wheldrake]

A heavy crossbow would do the job, at least for your first shot. The point is, however, to not be so hung up on the raw numbers. IMHO too many players (especially players who hang out on these forums) are far too hung up on the raw numbers for optimised combattants, like wanting to have "at least 6.5 ish average damage" at first level.

Forget the numbers, and just play the game. Between your investigator and your other party members, it'll all work out. The investigator's actions will still be a vital and viable part of the team effort, even if he's only doing 1d6 with a shortbow.

The only way I can see doing 6.5 average damage at first level is if you have the cash to swing for a composite longbow and 14 STR, and you'll need to be an elf to get free proficiency in longbow. It's doable, at least once you get partway to 2nd level and a wee bit of cash starts to roll in (is it around 350gp for a +2STR composite longbow?) No need for special archery feats, though.

You just don't have to be "fully optimised" simply in order to be "viable".

[Ierox]

I get that, but OP was asking for something effective to do in combat at first level.

If you run around doing 1d6+1 damage per round with your shortbow, you'll feel a little useless in combat, I'm sorry to say.

6.5 damage is not a high bar. It's a low, low bar. It's achieved by 1handing a morningstar with 14 strength.

Thinking that the boards go overboard in optimization is fine. But you're running screaming in the other direction here. It wouldn't kill you to pick up some strength and a morningstar.

Quote:

The only way I can see doing 6.5 average damage at first level is if you have the cash to swing for a composite longbow and 14 STR, and you'll need to be an elf to get free proficiency in longbow. It's doable, at least once you get partway to 2nd level and a wee bit of cash starts to roll in (is it around 350gp for a +2STR composite longbow?) No need for special archery feats, though.

Which is why I'm saying that archery investigators have the weakest early game.

An 18 dex inspired blade dip dex build does 1d4+4 or 1d6+4.

A 16str pure investigator build does 1d8+3/+4, or 2d6+4/+6 while enlargened, depending on if you twohand or not.

Meanwhile, an archery build will plink away with 1d6+1(cause of point blank shot), not getting rapid shot until level 3. That is the weakest way to go about the opening levels. It's just the truth.

You're right, you by no means have to be fully optimized to be viable. But, there's a middle ground between "fully optimized" and "not dealing 6.5 average damage on a hit", and I feel like you're not really seeing it.

[Ierox]

RE: OP

Another thing you can do as a low level investigator is combat maneuvers.

Combat Expertise + Improved Disarm (or trip, if you don't think you'll be fighting mostly humanoids) is a very strong first level.

For stats:

Human
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 17
Wis 10
Cha 8

You'll probably want to retrain it away as you level up, but for level 1, it's fairly glorious.