Title says it all I think.
I read at least 3 treads on the subject.
Black Blood Troll pops up a lot.
I came to 3 conclusions.
1)If not written, don't do it.
2)Need new rules or something added.
3)Ask your GM to House Rule it.
|
What would the benefit be?I would assume increased damage on a shield slam.
Ok. I thought maybe there was some benefit defensively that I wasn't aware of.
The inappropriately sized weapon rules should cover wielding a shield as a weapon. A large light shield would become a 1 handed weapon for a medium creature, a large heavy shield would become a two-handed weapon. Is there a reason to think that's not the case?
Or is the question whether or not you can still use it as a shield to get the shield bonus to AC if it isn't sized correctly for you? For that James is probably right. I don't think there's any RAW on the subject. Which leaves it to GM interpretation/house rule territory.
There was an issue when a halfling rouge used a medium size heavy shield from a fallen teammate to use as cover against mass attack of arrows and we used tower shield rules for the size different. There were penalties for non-proficiency and Inappropriately Sized.
Now the group noted that there's no rules or anything really on Inappropriately Sized Shields and we are "Discussing" what is the best way to handle it. I am doing my part to hunt down any information I can on the subject.
Weapon size rules help, but doesn't cover this issue completely.
This is NOT an request for advice on the issue, but just a question if you have heard any official word on the subject of Inappropriately Sized Shields.
Thank You for your time.
|
Unfortunately a tower shield is a completely different design, from a heavy shield. You could argue that a large light shield might be considered a Heavy shield because the stats are more or less similar, but that would not technically be true, a large heavy shield is definitely NOT going to be a Tower Shield. While it makes logical sense that a halfling might be able to gain cover from a large heavy shield (and I'd have no issue with a GM ruling that) I would probably say they are only able to do so by lifting it up and cowering under it without moving. It simply would not be designed to provide that level of benefit while wielding it and moving around, assuming the halfling could lift and move it well.
Very true. It was an one time deal and we do not want this to happen again.
That's why I am hunting down any kind of official word on the subject of Inappropriately Sized Shields.
We already believe you can NOT wear any kind of armor of any size not the same as your own. Period, end of discussion.
But shields are unique and could use some clarification.
Lucky for me. No one is asking to wield a large sized mithral quickdraw light shield yet. But I want to "nip this in the bud" as it were. All the members of this group will not be satisfied with house rules or ban from play. We are currently on research and "discussing" phase of this topic.
I will have to start a different tread if we feel we do have to house rule it after all. At that time, we will hammer out the details.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
No rules and no known dev post. If you prefer "off the cuff" remarks you could ask James Jacobs or Mark. Neither wish us to ask rules questions but both do answer.
This isn't a subject that has a high chance of dev comments as it isn't unclear in the rules (because the rules don't exist).
|
|
What would the benefit be?
One thing you'd get is the option of having a larger creature store in the shield.
I have been wondering if it would be legal to buy a wagon with a large shield storing a huge creature that my small sized character could then activate when the need was there.
(Small sized mammoth rider planed)
as it looks atm he has to rely on there being a druid around who'd be up for casting shrink animal or the like if going through areas made for normal sized people.
|
|
What would the benefit be?One thing you'd get is the option of having a larger creature store in the shield.
I have been wondering if it would be legal to buy a wagon with a large shield storing a huge creature that my small sized character could then activate when the need was there.
(Small sized mammoth rider planed)as it looks atm he has to rely on there being a druid around who'd be up for casting shrink animal or the like if going through areas made for normal sized people.
You mean using Hosteling on the shield? I mean, as long as there are rules covering buying a large shield, nothing stops you from doing that and putting Hosteling on it. There just aren't any rules for actually using the shield. But if you want to haul it around in a wagon, I don't see why that wouldn't work.
Or the much easier route is UMD and a wand of Carry Companion. It's 4,500 gold, but a large +1 Hosteling shield would be at least 9,656 (for a large, light, wooden shield +1 Hosteling). I doubt you'd burn through an entire wand in your career.
Thank You for all your help folks. Special Thanks to James Risner.
I figured that there was nothing solid on this subject.
If James Jacobs or Mark doesn't want us to ask rules/questions, then why would I bother them about it at all?
Now the question is where to start my new tread for Inappropriately Sized Shields. I'm thinking the Advice section, or is there a house-rule section?
Straight off the battlefield, off-sized shields are going to be simply unusable, because the handles and straps will be all wrong for the wrong-sized person trying to use it.
You could apply the penalties used for weapons to AC... but that would reduce most shield ACs to zero or less.
For the halfling (small-sized) hiding behind a medium heavy shield, I can understand your ruling that it was treated as a tower shield, but personally I would have ruled it as best as equal to improved cover (+8 to AC) rather than total cover. But this would be a strictly non-mobile solution, and an improvised one.
PF is wonky with wrong-sized weapons already, and it's highly problematic to use those rules to extrapolate for wrong-sized shields. The best solution is simply to say "no, you can't" and in some cases where there is an improvised one-time usage, then just spitball it, and don't use it as precedent for a more frequent use of wrong-sized equipment.
Thanks again James Risner.
Don't know how to make a link.
But for anyone interested here is the address:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7y1?Inappropriately-Sized-Shields-House-Rules
or just look up Inappropriately Sized Shields in the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew section.
Thank You for all your help folks. Special Thanks to James Risner.
I figured that there was nothing solid on this subject.If James Jacobs or Mark doesn't want us to ask rules/questions, then why would I bother them about it at all?
Now the question is where to start my new tread for Inappropriately Sized Shields. I'm thinking the Advice section, or is there a house-rule section?
Mark will answer rules questions, but they wont be official. However for many people they are good enough since he has inside knowledge that we may not.
James does not like to do rules questions at all.
If you are trying to use it as a shield, there are no rules. But if you just want to use it as a weapon, then it should use the same rules as any oversized weapon.
Wheldrake,
if we used your logic we wouldn't be able to use Inappropriately Sized weapons either.
Are you going to tell me that I can't use an over sized bastard sword and Light flail, or an under sized heavy crossbow and punching dagger?
The grip is too big for my hands or I can't put my finger in the trigger of my crossbow?
Is that your argument?
I would like to remind everyone this is a fantasy theme Role Playing Game. Where a person can play out almost any kind fantasy they can imagine. From stories told in ancient Greek like Homer's Odyssey or a more modern one like Legends of Zelda.
In both of these stories there was a problem of Inappropriately Sized gear.
Homer attacked the Cyclops with a large wooden stake.
A Young Link wore a big shield on his back and crawled his way up a dangerous mountain.
Inappropriately Sized Gear is part of the Fantasy world which Pathfinder is part of. Pathfinder provides us with rules and guidelines to help play out these fantasies. But Pathfinder was written by humans and humans are not perfect and can't possibly think up or know every possible situation an adventurer could encounter.
Inappropriately Sized Shield is one of those rare void areas where there are no rules in Pathfinder. None at all.
Everyone will have their own personal taste in Fantasy world. But please remember to be respectful of other people personal preference and your way is not the only way. For in life there is no ONE TRUE way.
Wheldrake,
if we used your logic we wouldn't be able to use Inappropriately Sized weapons either.
Are you going to tell me that I can't use an over sized bastard sword and Light flail, or an under sized heavy crossbow and punching dagger?
The grip is too big for my hands or I can't put my finger in the trigger of my crossbow?
Is that your argument?
No, not really.
I'm happy to use the extant PF rules for over or under-sized weapons. Although, in several years of play, it has never come up.I'm also happy to "translate" weapons into larger or smaller versions of the normal-sized weapon. A halfling using a medium-sized longsword can use it as a gratsword with no penalties. Same for a human using a large-sized longsword. A human using a large-sized ogre hook could use it as a medium-sized greataxe. Close enough for me.
That's a houserule, of course.
Undersized weapons are kind of strange. I'm not entirely sure that the penalty is really essential, since you're already going to do lesser base damage. I wouldn't impose any further penalty, as a DM.
Again, a houserule.
IMHO we should be as permissive as possible. YMMV.
to James Risner, They're no over size rules for range weapons either!?! Really? That going to need some research on my part.
To Wheldrake, the groups I play in hate houserules. But often think translating weapons would be far easier. But when in a group full of rule Nazis you better know the rules you're using or get slammed.
I would have thought this would be a pretty simple question to answer.
A Small character using a shield sized for a Medium character would get all of the normal benefits and penalties for doing so (shield bonus, armor check penalty, arcane spell failure, etc.), but would also suffer a -2 penalty to hit and would need one extra hand for every size difference between the two.
For example, a halfling wielding a light shield sized for a human, would wield it as a one-handed weapon and would have a -2 penalty to hit with it; a heavy shield would be treated as a two-handed weapon with a -4 penalty to hit.
It should be, but if not written, then who really knows?
Some would argue AC would change between light and heavy shields.
Can someone wield a 2-handed shield and still be used as a shield? Are there any 2-handed shield already in the game?
Where does this -4 to hit come from? -2 to for each weapon size difference. Medium 1-handed shield to a small would be 2-handed shield with -2, not -4. Would you add -4 to attack roll if a small person used a medium sized longsword in 2 hands?
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
A Small character using a shield sized for a Medium character would get all of the normal benefits and penalties for doing so (shield bonus, armor check penalty, arcane spell failure, etc.), but would also suffer a -2 penalty to hit and would need one extra hand for every size difference between the two.
Aside from the "using as a weapon" rules, there are generic rules stating what you say there. There is an armor/shield property.
There is a feat for large bows I believe.
Do you know off-hand what that feat is called?
That's a nice enchantment James Risner, worthy of note. But it only applies to what it enhances. If I ever find some sweet armor or shield that doesn't fit me. This would be my go to fix. Assuming the I don't surpass the +10 item limit.
Good question Darksol the Painbringer, I would like to know that as well.
One of the reasons this subject bugs me is that a shield is a treated as armor and weapon.
I'm pretty sure one could use an inappropriately sized shield as a weapon using inappropriately sized weapons rules.
But, do you get the shield bonus anymore? Does the shield bonus change? Is there an increase to ACP? etc.
What a mess. Best to avoid I would imagine.