My husband Debnor & I are starting in a brand-new campaign, 1st-level, limited to basic PRD books only. To give you an idea of the restrictions, when I asked about race, the GM said, "Nothing funny." "So only Core races?" I asked. "Well, I wouldn't mind aasimars or tieflings," he answered. So I promptly began thinking about aasimars, and Debnor (I could tell by the look on his face, too!) promptly began considering tieflings. As you can see, however, 3rd-party races are beyond the pale. I don't know about catfolk & other featured ARG races...
We have a wizard & a dwarf ranger (weapon-style TBA), our two characters, and up to two more TBA.
I'm thinking of a lore oracle with the spirit guide archetype. I do very poorly at last-minute spell selection, but adore spontaneous casters, so spirit guide oracle might be the best mix of prepared vs. spontaneous for me at this point. (Someday I'll be ready for arcanist...) And I love the potential of a lore oracle for a mix of utility.
Of course, the archetype means that I only get one (!) revelation before 11th level, most likely Lore Keeper.
If Melee Touch attacks for spells count as light weapons (do they?), I'll go for Weapon Finesse at 1st level. Then I can keep Str near 10, focus on Dex, and get decent spell attacks in whether melee or ranged. Of course, I'll want an even higher focus on Cha. (I expect we'll roll for stats.) What would be good stat priorities if melee touches don't count?
+2 Wis, +2 Cha
Scion of Humanity: Outsider (native) & Humanoid (human)
Medium Size & Normal Speed 30 ft.
Darkvision 60 ft.
Truespeaker: +2 on Linguistics & Sense Motive; 2 languages/pt in Linguistics
SLA: Daylight 1x/day; CL = class level <=== actually HD, right?
Deathless Spirit: bonuses vs. neg. energy, death effects, etc.
Language: Common & regional human??. Choose bonus languages from: Celestial??, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, & Sylvan.
If we need a roguish sort, Debnor is looking at an empiricist investigator. If he can get the GM's permission, he's looking at sylph or ratfolk; otherwise elf. He says he's never been a fan of poison use, anyway, so giving that up isn't a big loss. And empiricist lets him focus mostly on building up Int, and secondarily Dex. He'll also want good Dex-to-damage somehow. (Dervish dancing will not be an option with this GM!)
If we don't, he would want to play a whip-wielding, no-archetype magus as controller. Or he may take a look at hexcrafter. For race, he likes a tiefling with a prehensile tail. (Metamagic rods!)
We'd both like suggestions and comments!
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Heh. There may be lots of aasimars and tieflings in your friend's campaign. What aasimar heritage were you thinking of for your Loracle? I see that you have a classic aasimar under the spoiler, but have you considered angelkin for the strength boost? I recommend strength builds for many oracles -- no need for dex to damage feats and it makes it easier for you to carry stuff and wear armor.
There is Sidestep Secret, which might let you bypass putting a lot of points in dex, but it could be very painful for you as a first level character if you have to wait for that revelation.
I've made five oracles so far. Love the class, and love the Spirit Guide archetype. It is very strong. One thing to consider is that the feat extra revelation exists. If there are any revelations you truly want, you can get them with feats before eleventh level. Lore has some pretty decent spells (though I am not too fond of Identify, it can save your bacon if your GM makes you identify all magic items before you can use them.)
What curse were you thinking of? Curses are quite honestly my favorite part of the oracle class. There are so many ways to flavor them.
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Empyricist investigators rock. My son runs one and loves it. Once again, I recommend a strength build. Though magus is a lot of fun too!
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Do you know what else will be in your party?
Hmm
Someday should be today. Go arcanist. Whats the worst that could happen?
Weapon Finesse would work for delivering those touch attacks, but I would advise against getting it unless you have plans use that feat for weapon attacks too. Or, if there aren't any other feats you want. If you have plans to focus on melee touch attacks, then I would suggest you pick up Combat Casting first.
Someday should be today. Go arcanist. Whats the worst that could happen?
Whoa! Wow! But... what's the worst that could happen??? I could annoy the entire group by spending 30 minutes RT (conservative estimate, I kid you not) picking my PC's spells for the day, only to find that I still don't have the right ones!
I've played a witch twice now, and liked it. They're great because you can pick hexes at level-up and roll with them. Spontaneous casting at its finest, because it lasts all day long! But I reliably end up needing enough of one spell for the whole party -- yet have only prepared one, while not needing the others I prepared at all. This latest witch is more fun than the first, I have to admit. No, no, it's that I made her a hedgewitch, and have largely been utilizing her spontaneous Cures!
Someday, I'll take that dare, safe in knowing that as an arcanist, I can run through as many castings of a given spell as I have slots -- so if I'm not sure which of three spells that I'll need, but expect to need one of them a lot, I'll have it. For now, I think having to pick a wandering spirit for the day will be challenge enough (for the party waiting on me LOL).
But thank you for the encouragement.
Wandering spirit is worse than arcanist. Honestly you use the same list every day. You use quick study to prepare specific situational spells. You might trade out 1/2 level spells whenever you get a hint at what the dungeon will contain. IE: it is revealed that you will be going into the crypt, trade out enervation move on. Its like running a sorcerer who can act as a silver bullet mage
Heh. There may be lots of aasimars and tieflings in your friend's campaign. What aasimar heritage were you thinking of for your Loracle? I see that you have a classic aasimar under the spoiler, but have you considered angelkin for the strength boost? I recommend strength builds for many oracles -- no need for dex to damage feats and it makes it easier for you to carry stuff and wear armor.
There is Sidestep Secret, which might let you bypass putting a lot of points in dex, but it could be very painful for you as a first level character if you have to wait for that revelation.
I've made five oracles so far. Love the class, and love the Spirit Guide archetype. It is very strong. One thing to consider is that the feat extra revelation exists. If there are any revelations you truly want, you can get them with feats before eleventh level.
Heh, indeed! A worthy warning!
Sadly, I can't find "angelkin" in the PRD, which makes me suspect that the GM won't allow it. With a vanilla aasimar but the Scion of Humanity trait, and therefore the Humanoid (Human) type, do I qualify for the human oracle FCB?
I was all set to argue for the benefits of a Dex-build, up until I bothered to look some weapons up.
Feat: Weapon Finesse to use Dex for melee to-hit
Melee to-hit: +2
Weapon: Sickle for 1d6/x2, or 3.5 + 7/20 = 3.85 average.
Ranged to-hit: +2
Bonus for AC & Reflex: +2
Bonus for Initiative: +2
Bonus for Dex skills: +2
Carrying Capacity: 33/66/100 lbs.
Feat: Extra Revelation (Side-Step) to use Cha for AC & Reflex
Melee to-hit: +2
Weapon: Spear for 1d8+3/x3, or 7.5 + 22.5/20 = 8.63 average.
Ranged to-hit: +0
Bonus for AC & Reflex: +4
Bonus for Initiative: +0
Bonus for Dex skills: +0
Carrying Capacity: 58/116/175 lbs.
The first set is truly sickly, isn't it? The paltry ranged to-hit could be painful, but melee weapons, bolstered by melee touch & AoE spells will have to suffice. I'm going to have to spend an extra trait or feat on Initiative to make up the difference, is the biggest failing of the second stat array. OTOH, while this character isn't going to be the Acrobatic, Stealthy, Escape Artist of the crowd, those aren't class skills anyway, and chances are, I won't have skill points left-over to plug into them.
Conclusion: thanks for advocating the Strength-build, and reminding me I can spend feats on revelations. OTOH, I'm assuming that you'd still recommend that I plug the highest number I roll into Cha.
Weapon Finesse would work for delivering those touch attacks, but I would advise against getting it unless you have plans use that feat for weapon attacks too. Or, if there aren't any other feats you want. If you have plans to focus on melee touch attacks, then I would suggest you pick up Combat Casting first.
Your advice is very timely! I was planning on a Finesse weapon when I first posted, but not anymore...
How would you order the extra revelation and Combat Casting? I'm tempted to postpone the latter to when I might maybe have spells that I want to cast in combat (3rd level). My experience with low-level casters, at least, is that they run out of 1st-level spells devastatingly fast. (Well, I'll have 5/day at 2nd, provided I get a Cha of 18.) The thing is, consulting the PRD spell index, I see that divine casters cannot do damage with an orison. Eeek!
Lore has some pretty decent spells (though I am not too fond of Identify, it can save your bacon if your GM makes you identify all magic items before you can use them.)
What curse were you thinking of? Curses are quite honestly my favorite part of the oracle class. There are so many ways to flavor them.
[...]
Do you know what else will be in your party?
Our GM isn't that petty, but I'm not going to pick a mystery based on whether I long for every spell it offers. Especially not when I'll be getting a donation of spells known from a wandering spirit before too long!
Curses... Curses... I have to find out more about the world's homebrew pantheon and which deity would sponsor Lore. But given the connection with the Wandering Spirits that bless me, a Haunted curse might be most thematic. Is it awful to live with? (No metamagic rods for that girl!)
To quote myself...
We have a wizard & a dwarf ranger (weapon-style TBA), our two characters, and up to two more TBA.
Wandering spirit is worse than arcanist. Honestly you use the same list every day. You use quick study to prepare specific situational spells. You might trade out 1/2 level spells whenever you get a hint at what the dungeon will contain. IE: it is revealed that you will be going into the crypt, trade out enervation move on. Its like running a sorcerer who can act as a silver bullet mage
Thanks for the rec! I think that everything you say after "Wandering spirit is worse than arcanist" applies to arcanist, but I'm not positive...
Sadly, I can't find "angelkin" in the PRD, which makes me suspect that the GM won't allow it. With a vanilla aasimar but the Scion of Humanity trait, and therefore the Humanoid (Human) type, do I qualify for the human oracle FCB?
Angelkin is from the Blood of Angels splatbook.
My understanding is that taking the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait does qualify you for the Human FCB. The FCB is something related to race, and Half-Elves and Half-Orcs can take Human FCB.
Wandering spirit is worse than arcanist. Honestly you use the same list every day. You use quick study to prepare specific situational spells. You might trade out 1/2 level spells whenever you get a hint at what the dungeon will contain. IE: it is revealed that you will be going into the crypt, trade out enervation move on. Its like running a sorcerer who can act as a silver bullet mageThanks for the rec! I think that everything you say after "Wandering spirit is worse than arcanist" applies to arcanist, but I'm not positive...
Quick Study is an exploit that an Arcanist can take. It allows you to swap out one spell for another as a full round action if you have your spellbook. It costs you one point from your Arcane Reservoir -- basically a pool of points used to power various abilities.
Everything after that appears to be in relation to their recommended use of Quick Study.
Given what you've said about your experiences with your witch and spontaneous casters, you may find an Arcanist worth looking at sometime.
Heh. There may be lots of aasimars and tieflings in your friend's campaign. What aasimar heritage were you thinking of for your Loracle?
What curse were you thinking of? Curses are quite honestly my favorite part of the oracle class. There are so many ways to flavor them.
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Empyricist investigators rock. My son runs one and loves it. Once again, I recommend a strength build. Though magus is a lot of fun too!
Hmm
Thanks for the vote of confidence on the empiricist. After looking through the guides, I'm actually looking at half-orc for that, to get the weapon proficiencies - falchion is one of my favorite weapons for a non-shield user.
Unfortunately, our GM doesn't use splatbooks, so no aasimar/tiefling heritages, and a highly limited selection of curses for bitter lily's oracle.
I'm actually waiting for the other players to finalize what they want to play -- I'm unusual in my group for being open to just about anything (of course, that's probably a side effect of having been playing since pre-AD&D 1st ed.), and will tend to pick my character to fill perceived holes in the party.
But I'm looking forward to new variants, whichever I go with!
BretI and Particle_Man, thank you very much for your info.
I was thinking oracle partly because I'd heard that we have a wizard & a ranger. Then I found out that there might be two other PCs. Now I've found out that the wizard might have to drop due to work conflicts. Wah! So if one of the uncommitted two players wants to do a healer and the arcane caster drops, I'll definitely go arcanist. (With minimal trepidation, thanks to your encouragement.) If neither of those things happen, loracle seems like the most helpful choice I can make. Either looks like fun.
The loracle, especially if I do take the Haunted curse, looks like a great RP challenge. I don't just "know" something -- I have a brief, one-sided conversation with a spirit who tells me whatever. Weapons that should have hit me deflect as though an invisible entity had grabbed the blade and moved it aside -- and I promptly thank said entity. I'm so lost in conversations with the swirling spirits around me that I often get abstracted and then say something entirely off the subject. (OK, that's not entirely RP!) When I drop something, I scold the entity that took it.
In any case, it looks like my curse is the biggest thing about the loracle I have yet to firm up.
I looked again at curses, and realized that Tongues (Celestial) or (Aklo) might be appropriate. I have to pin the GM down on the deity of Lore -- and the language of otherworldly spirits.
To start with, I have outright questions about three traits in Ultimate Campaign.
Blessed: Some divine agent watches over you and heeds your call. Once per day as a swift action, you gain a +1 trait bonus on all saving throws for 1 round.
[...] Inspired: A positive force, philosophy, or divine presence fills you with hope, and is a guiding force of inspiration. Once per day as a free action, roll twice and take the better result on a skill check or ability check.[...] Tireless Logic: Your curious mind figures out even the most complex problems. Once per day when you make an Intelligence-based skill check or ability check, you can roll twice and take the better result.
> The thing about a swift action is that you make it on your turn, while you often need to make saves on the other guys' turns. Shouldn't this be an immediate action? Has Blessed been FAQed? Or is it only good for situations where you failed a save, and have to save again on your turn?
> Do you have to decide to use Inspired before you make any rolls, or after you see the die roll the first time, but before you know the result?> Given that I will be using Charisma for Knowledge checks, are they then Charisma-based skill checks, or still Intelligence-based for purposes of Tireless Logic?
I love traits, and am thinking of taking a drawback to get a third...
Meticulous: You plan and prepare everything in detail, and aren't good at improvising when things don't go as planned. You take a —2 penalty on skill checks for skills with which you're untrained.
I usually go for an Int bonus of +1 or +2, so I'd have 5 or 6 skill pts per level to spend, partly to eliminate that penalty. It would take a few levels... Comments?
I love dabbling in skills, too. Especially if they are thematic, like taking Profession (sailor) after a long ocean voyage.
Blessed works best if you know you are about to need to make several saves...say just before attacking some ghouls, troglodytes, or other such creatures. You are right though, since it is not an immediate action you can't use it in response to a situation.
With Inspired, yes you have to decide before you roll. It isn't a re-roll, it is roll twice and take the better result.
I am not sure what the correct answer is for Tireless Logic, but since this is a home game ask the GM. This is one where I would expect some table variation.
SmiloDan, I have to admit, that's more dabbling than I'm usually willing to do! :)
BretI, thanks.
And as it turns out... I'm most grateful to those of you encouraging me to go Arcanist. We do have a 5th player (albeit not a 6th), and he's picking a cleric. I don't want to compete. I'm going to have to read up on the class for sure, because I've never seen it in play.
In PF, I usually max out X-1 of my skills, and then dabble 1 skill per level. I like to be great at a bunch of stuff, and decent at a bunch of stuff too. :-)
And as it turns out... I'm most grateful to those of you encouraging me to go Arcanist. We do have a 5th player (albeit not a 6th), and he's picking a cleric. I don't want to compete. I'm going to have to read up on the class for sure, because I've never seen it in play.
So far I haven't found a good guide for that class. I would suggest reading various sorcerer guides on spell selection and build your spellbook based on that plus your experiences as a witch.
Charisma is optional on the class. Look at what arcanist exploits interest you. Once you have a list, go through them as see which of those utilize Charisma. If you think you will need to fill up your arcane reservoir a lot, you will also want a good Charisma.
You will find it painful at the even levels as you only get to select one spell of your highest level each day. The Quick Study exploit allows you to switch out a spell, but that is a quick way to use up your reservoir. I don't tend to take this exploit, but it would help with the frustration of not having a useful spell for some situation.
Hope you have fun with your Arcanist!
Building an Arcanist
Spell Selection: Sorcerer guides for spells prepared, Wizard guides for spells in book
Exploits: quick study, familiar, school understanding(foresight, void(note the power that scales by caster level), or adamixture), dimension slide, metamixing, potent magic, metamagic knowledge, item crafting, arcane discovery, spell tinkerer
Greater Exploits: greater metamagic knowledge, spellthief
Feats: 1 trick pony is best. Pick something to focus on and max the hell out of it. Varies slightly by focus. Pretty much just copy paste from a wizard or sorcerer build of the same type. I have a ton of builds if you can tell me what you want
Ability Scores: Int max, dex + con secondary, wis = 10. Charisma is dumpable with a few exceptions. If your at high point buy go ahead and buy some. If you have a very money giving dm get some. Also note that cha <=13 is exactly the same for you
Traits: metamagic cost reduction, clever wordplay(umd)
Skills: perception, umd, spellcraft, knowledges
Good Archetypes: Collegiate Initiate, Twilight Sage. Literally every other archetype is extremely niche or a trap
I will politely disagree with Dastis on some of what they said.
Look at the exploits that interest you. Use that to determine if Charisma can be dumped. I have not dumped Charisma on either of my Arcanists.
I would put the attributes in this order: Int, Cha, Con, Dex if you use Charisma or Int, Con, Dex if you don't. You can shift the position of Dex and Con to fit your play style.
Charisma <= 13 is not always the same. Charisma 7 and 13 are the same when it comes to filling your arcane pool, but there are exploits (including School Understanding) where the actual modifier does matter. Refilling your arcane pool has a line about minimum of once a day that causes people to say Charisma 7 and 13 are equally valuable.
I've got to run, will come back later to write more.
Back and writing more:
One trick pony is BORING. You can manipulate the very rules of reality, why limit yourself to a single trick?
I don't feel that you need to put an archetype on an Arcanist. My first arcanist started as Occultist and then the ACG reprint came out destroying that build. The Occultist is still a strong archetype, but for that specific archetype your charisma is probably more important than your Intelligence. That archetype at about fifth level starts eating up your arcane reservoir like crazy. Since is a character in PFS, I got a rebuild and went with Brown Fur Arcanist.
I hope this helps. Feel free to continue asking questions!
In PF, I usually max out X-1 of my skills, and then dabble 1 skill per level. I like to be great at a bunch of stuff, and decent at a bunch of stuff too. :-)
I like that approach. I often find that I want more than one rank in more than X-1 skills, so... no, I can't do this in math formulas. If I have 6 skill points to spend, I might pick 3 skills to max, 4 to build to half-level (2 get a rank one level, and the other 2 the next), and then I still have the 1 point to dabble with. Eventually, though, I'll be able to put that extra point into the 4 I'm behind on. I never quite have a spare point for Profession (sailor)! (Unless it's background for pre-game, or I get to use Background Skills.) I applaud you!
I will politely disagree with Dastis on some of what they said.
Look at the exploits that interest you. Use that to determine if Charisma can be dumped. I have not dumped Charisma on either of my Arcanists.
I would put the attributes in this order: Int, Cha, Con, Dex if you use Charisma or Int, Con, Dex if you don't. You can shift the position of Dex and Con to fit your play style.
Charisma <= 13 is not always the same. Charisma 7 and 13 are the same when it comes to filling your arcane pool, but there are exploits (including School Understanding) where the actual modifier does matter. Refilling your arcane pool has a line about minimum of once a day that causes people to say Charisma 7 and 13 are equally valuable.
I've got to run, will come back later to write more.
Back and writing more:
One trick pony is BORING. You can manipulate the very rules of reality, why limit yourself to a single trick?
I don't feel that you need to put an archetype on an Arcanist. My first arcanist started as Occultist and then the ACG reprint came out destroying that build. The Occultist is still a strong archetype, but for that specific archetype your charisma is probably more important than your Intelligence. That archetype at about fifth level starts eating up your arcane reservoir like crazy. Since is a character in PFS, I got a rebuild and went with Brown Fur Arcanist.
I hope this helps. Feel free to continue asking questions!
Pretty good analysis. Just a little reasoning behind what I said
Looked through exploits again. Pretty sure school understanding is the only good one affected by charisma. I do agree with your standard of when charisma should be dumped. That is why I say dump charisma in most cases
I argue pro 1 trick pony because that is usually the easiest way to optimize and I find it fun to play powerful characters. Also there are many spells you can still use effectively even after you specialize. Its more of a I am really awesome at doing X but still fully able to cast whatever other spells are needed. That's the major advantage of being an arcanist. All the power of a sorcerer specialist with the versatility of a wizard
Forgot Brown Fur arcanist. While occultist is ok, Wizard and Sorcerer are just better summoners. I rate archetypes harshly because they eat so many exploits
One of my issues is that I've always preferred a blaster. I can build, not the blastiest blaster out there (based on the eye-opening builds I've read here), but one that's troublesome for the GMs I play with. But I also like to push myself to stretch...
One of the things I was thinking of for the loracle was switching from ranged or AoE direct-damage spells to melee-touch, save-or-suck spells. Certainly, arcane melee-touch spells offer some interesting effects that I've always by-passed.
The thing is, by 6th-level, an oracle is able to rely on spells primarily. I don't think an arcanist can -- they get 4/4/2 spells/day instead of 6/5/3. (Can an arcanist be configued to add a spell/day to each level from a specialization?) My point is that I'm thinking I'll need something to do when I don't want to spend a spell, and actual melee combat might be it. But boy, is that MAD! (It was easier to contemplate with the loracle, for sure.)
I need to read the class better to figure out what else might be an option.
As a side-note, I tend to be impatient with casting buffs; combats are often over so quickly that they seem useless. (Admittedly, there are exceptions where I'm extremely grateful to have someone else buff me!) I'm also not very good at placing battlefield control spells like Create Pit. I can try stretching in that direction as a sideline, but save-or-suck spells will be better for me if I want to step away from direct damage.
One more note: The players in our party are experienced, but not necessarily highly tactical. I just finished reading the Forge of Combat, and noted ruefully that many of my fellow players would be highly impatient at the idea of holding their action so that another could do battlefield control before they rushed into melee.
Well if you want a blaster and don't mind delving into some complexity, you could try a kineticist. Con is the important stat here. Earth Kineticists tend to be popular.
Someday I'll try it. But not with this GM. I'm pretty sure that's going to be on his list of "too weird."
{Added: Certainly, Alchemist is.}
There is the feat Expanded Preparation to increase the number of spells you can select from each day. It is like an extra spell known for a Sorcerer.
If you plan to do spells in melee, you might want to look at the half-orc FCB.
Arcanist: Gain a +1 bonus on concentration checks made because of taking damage while casting arcanist spells.
As for spell slots, that depends heavily on campaign. First level is very painful as an Arcanist. By the time you get to sixth or seventh level, it isn't so much a problem.
The Eldritch Font, Elemental Master, and School Savant can get an extra spell per level with restrictions.
I have never done a melee Wizard/Sorcerer/Arcanist so I can only theory-craft on that. I would be looking at Magus if I was trying to do it, I'm not saying you shouldn't try it, only that I don't have experience there.
Yeah arcanist is heavily reliant on your ability to manage spells. I recommend getting some low level buff/utility wands and a nice light crossbow. Basically you want to win the fight with your first few spells then let the fighters mop up. And there is no way to specialize in a school for more actual slots.
Did you want to play a gish? There are a few interesting Blade Adept builds.
For save or suck do you mean
1. Save or strong debuff
or
2. Save or remove from fight
Either way you are probably ranged as there are few melee arcane spells worth using. Just based on your comments I would go with one of the dazing blaster builds. Basically they deal moderate damage while applying save or remove from fight. As an arcanist you would probably best use dazing spell with a damage per round spell like flaming sphere or snapdragon fireworks. There is a trait that adds 1 force damage to make sure you always deal at least 1 damage. Also you can go collegiate arcanist to pick up call lightning + all those other slot efficient druid spells.
In PF, I usually max out X-1 of my skills, and then dabble 1 skill per level. I like to be great at a bunch of stuff, and decent at a bunch of stuff too. :-)I like that approach. I often find that I want more than one rank in more than X-1 skills, so... no, I can't do this in math formulas. If I have 6 skill points to spend, I might pick 3 skills to max, 4 to build to half-level (2 get a rank one level, and the other 2 the next), and then I still have the 1 point to dabble with. Eventually, though, I'll be able to put that extra point into the 4 I'm behind on. I never quite have a spare point for Profession (sailor)! (Unless it's background for pre-game, or I get to use Background Skills.) I applaud you!
It was for my 3.5 elf archer druid. So 1 rank + a ton of Wisdom... And he had above average Int.
It would have been even better in PF, where it would have been 1 rank + 3 class skill + $#!+load of Wisdom.
But I mostly play 5e now, so no more dabbling. :-(
BretI: The half-orc FCB looked fabulous: +6 Concentration at 6th level? Until I realized that that was if you take damage, not if you're casting defensively. Ooops!
Expanded Preparation is definitely something to keep in mind. <sigh> I'm just used to getting it as an FCB. And of course it doesn't fix spells/day -- what fixes it is a high Int.
Thanks for mentioning archetypes that might fulfill my wish, but as I think you expected, I didn't find them interesting.
Dastis: I couldn't find the following in the PRD, and hence would be unable to select them: School Understanding (Void), and both "good archetypes" (Collegiate Initiate & Twilight Sage).
Blade Adept would probably fit me better than Blackblade Magus, just because of the spontaneous spellcasting (and larger spell list). However, I've realized that I wasn't paying attention to something really basic about the difference between oracle (or magus!) & arcanist: Armor Proficiency. Maybe I do want to hang back and go ranged again, after all...
Your Admixture School Understanding would make for such a very, very fun blaster... So much potential... <rubs hands gleefully> And I could even argue that with Dazing metamagic, I'm "stretching..."
OTOH, when I glanced at archetypes, Spell Specialist stood out for me. I admit, the base ability is "Thank you for not doing me any favors!" You always can cast your signature spells -- because in essence you always prepare them, like it or not. But +1 DC, and a +2 or +4 bonus on concentration checks isn't that shabby. And the BIG DEAL, for 1 point from my pool:
Dismiss (Su): A spell specialist can dismiss a signature spell as a swift action instead of a standard action. Alternatively, the spell specialist can dismiss a signature spell that has a duration but isn't normally dismissible.
I've complained that I'm scared to cast something like Acid Pit because I'm likely to put it somewhere that protects the baddies & hurts my friends. Especially since if a friend falls into my pit, I not only took them out of the fight, but I'm giving them damage, too! This would at least fix the fact that the pit is undismissable -- I could try battlefield control! Of course, I would be giving up three early- to mid-level exploits to get the ability to erase mistakes... (And yes, I've heard that there's a feat I don't have access to with a different approach to dismissing a badly placed undismissable spell. Except I don't have access to it.)
So maybe the moral of the day is that I could try a ranged build combining blasting with battlefield control: a Spell Specialist Arcanist, planning on Admixture School Understanding.
Comments, anyone?
{Added: I wonder if the GM would let me get away with playing a Wayang... I know they're the hot new race. Small w/ an Int bonus, heh! Unlikely in the extreme, however.}
But I mostly play 5e now, so no more dabbling. :-(
Why? (I've never looked at it, so I know nothing about the mechanics.)
1. Elf UnRogue 4/Slayer 6 - Pick the Elven Curve Blade for your Finesse Training choice, and take the Two Handed Ranger Combat Style to get Power Attack without needing a 13 STR.
2. Martial Artist Monk 5/Barbarian 5 - Five levels of Martial Artist makes you immune to fatigue, so rage cycling is no big deal.
3. Sohei Monk 1/Empyreal Wildblooded Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 3 - Empyreal makes WIS your casting stat, so you have a bonus to your AC without needing armor.
4. Arsenal Chaplain War Priest 10 - Gorum likes greatswords, and can let you use Vital Strike at the end of a charge with Divine Fighting Technique. You also can pick up Weapon Training goodies.
5. Brawler Fighter 10 - Gorum's Shield-trained trait lets you treat heavy shields as light weapons. With two weapon fighting, you can use your shield and your favorite close weapon. With Weapon Finesse, Martial Focus and Advanced Weapon Training, you can choose Trained Grace to be DEX-based without losing much.
6. Human Crusader Cleric 1/UnMonk 9 - Pick a deity with a favored weapon you like, like Shizuru's katana, and take Crusader's Flurry to Flurry with it.
But I mostly play 5e now, so no more dabbling. :-(Why? (I've never looked at it, so I know nothing about the mechanics.)
In 5th Edition, you are either Proficient or not Proficient on certain ability checks, attacks, and saving throws; mostly based on your class. The Proficiency bonus begins at +2 at 1st level and goes up by +1 and levels 5, 9, 13, and 17, where it maxes out at +6. (It seems really low compared to Pathfinder, but 5E uses something called Bounded Accuracy, which basically keeps all the math from going nuts. DCs go from 5 (super easy) to 30 (practically impossible). You're not going to have a fighter with +40 on attack rolls going against AC 50 monsters! A 20th level fighter might have a +15 to hit: +5 from 20 Strength or Dexterity, +6 from Proficiency, +3 from a magic weapon, and +1 from a Legendary ioun stone.)
In 5th Edition, you get Proficiency in 2 skills from a background (like acolyte, sage, urchin, noble, folk hero, etc.) and 2 to 4 skills from your class (6 for some bards), and maybe 1 or 2 skills from your race. You can also choose to take the Skilled feat, which gives you 3 skills.
You either add your Proficiency bonus (which is +2 to +6, over 20 levels), or you don't. There is no way to get a partial Proficiency bonus in a skill (except for bards, who get to add 1/2 their proficiency bonus on all non-Proficient skills; some fighter archetypes add half their proficiency bonus on untrained Strength and Dexterity skills).
To lazy to link atm
All arcanist archetypes
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/archetypes/paizo-ar canist-archetypes/
Collegiate initiate
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/archetypes/paizo-ar canist-archetypes/collegiate-initiate-arcanist/
Twilight sage
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/archetypes/paizo-ar canist-archetypes/twilight-sage-arcanist-archetype/
Void School
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo-ar cane-schools/elemental-arcane-schools/void-elemental-school/
Disclaimer
Note all my commentary is pure minmax perspective. Add flavor and RP however you wish
Spell Specialist is a bad option. The always prepared thing is a nerf because they count against your spells prepared. You get 4 abilities. For this you trade 4 exploits. Would be fair if it weren't for the fact better abilities can be bought for less throughout
1)bonus save dc and concentration checks- nice. Worth a bit more than an exploit
2)Dismiss- mimiced by fleeting spell a 0 cost metamagic. In other words a good option for greater metamagic knowledge or a super cheap rod
3)Bending Line spells- interesting. Not worth an exploit. How many line spells do you really use? Also what is wrong with selective spell?
4)Shorten cones and spreads- selective spell beats this flat out. I would rather take even merciful spell than this
Fleeting Spell(in case you couldn't find it rather than dm ban)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/fleeting-spell-metamagic/
As for armor you gotta think like an arcanist. You don't need armor. You have spells. Invisibility + Mirror Image > armor. If you really want armor you can get a mithril celestial breastplate if your willing to pay. Pricy but it is nice. Also some DMs won't let you modify specific armor sets at all
5e for skills you get no skill points. You get skills you are proficient in from your class + background. Its super simple like the rest of the system. 5e is a nice weekend read. System mastery takes about 4 sessions including min maxing
SmiloDan, thanks for explaining. I hope they start layering on complexity, like other abilities that let you get 1/2 proficiency for unproficient knowledge skills, charisma skills, or whatever. Preferably as feats or backgrounds you can take, rather than a class feature.
5e for skills you get no skill points. You get skills you are proficient in from your class + background. Its super simple like the rest of the system. 5e is a nice weekend read. System mastery takes about 4 sessions including min maxing
From this and SmiloDan's math example, I get the impression that it's another try at designing a game for kids these days. Great. Hopefully, there will be migration from 5e to PF over time, and the resulting greater use of math skills, reading skills, attention span, logic, and more.
Disclaimer
Note all my commentary is pure minmax perspective. Add flavor and RP however you wishSpell Specialist is a bad option. The always prepared thing is a nerf because they count against your spells prepared. You get 4 abilities. For this you trade 4 exploits. Would be fair if it weren't for the fact better abilities can be bought for less throughout
1)bonus save dc and concentration checks- nice. Worth a bit more than an exploit
2)Dismiss- mimiced by fleeting spell a 0 cost metamagic. In other words a good option for greater metamagic knowledge or a super cheap rod
3)Bending Line spells- interesting. Not worth an exploit. How many line spells do you really use? Also what is wrong with selective spell?
4)Shorten cones and spreads- selective spell beats this flat out. I would rather take even merciful spell than this
In short, your analysis of Spell Specialist mimics mine, although I simply ignored Bending Line & Shorten AoEs. I fully agree with you on Selective Spell. (I also ignored the exploit you trade out at 19th, as I've gotten cynical about ever in my life playing a 19th-level character!) What I really need to do is to ask my GM if I can take Fleeting Spell, I suppose, and keep my exploits. But I'm hesitant to do so, simply because he already picks and chooses what to approve even from books in the PRD. Note that Fleeting Spell would require burning a feat or buying a rod, which increases the casting time, and comes with drawbacks...
Fleeting Spell (Metamagic)
[...] Benefit(s): A fleeting spell’s duration becomes dismissible, if it is not already. You can dismiss your own fleeting spell as a swift action. When you dismiss a fleeting spell, its lingering aura cannot be detected by magic unless the caster succeeds at a caster level check against a DC equal to 11 + your caster level. The DC of dispel checks to counter a fleeting spell is reduced by 2, and once active, dispel magic removes a fleeting spell without a caster level check. A fleeting spell has half its normal duration (with an extended fleeting spell, these duration adjustments cancel out). Only spells with a duration of at least 2 rounds can be made fleeting, and instantaneous or permanent spells cannot be fleeting spells.
Since I'm not used to having rival casters try to dispel my magic, I'm not as concerned with the fragility -- but that half-duration will be painful for some time to come.
If the GM even permits Fleeting Spell, would you rate saving 2 exploits as worth the increased casting time and half-duration for using Fleeting Spell for affected spells? (Remember, we said that the bonus to save DCs and to concentration checks was worth 1 exploit, and I'm ignoring the exploit you lose at 19th.) And please remember that I am asking this on behalf of someone with spatial challenges, who very well might put a pit right where a friend will need to cross it and fall into it, but foes will not! And who therefore will want to make all of her pits & clouds & such dismissable!
For more accomplished players, used to battlefield control, the archetype is indeed clearly a very bad bargain.
As for armor you gotta think like an arcanist. You don't need armor. You have spells. Invisibility + Mirror Image > armor. If you really want armor you can get a mithril celestial breastplate if your willing to pay. Pricy but it is nice. Also some DMs won't let you modify specific armor sets at all
You're giving me lots to think about! :) I hate to use spells on AC, given how few I can prepare & cast. But getting some cheap wands ASAP would be a good investment. Maybe I can get wands of Mage Armor & Shield, custom-crafted by a caster of 2nd or 3rd level, for 750 or 1,125 gp each. Eventually, I'll have to get a source for Mirror Image & Greater Invis, whether they hog prepared spell slots, or probably better, come as wands. (Don't get me started on staves, please!)
Your armor suggestions were interesting, too, and got me to thinking. But to me it takes a shenanigan to get down to a 0% Arcane Spell Failure, and even 5% would annoy me no end. (I noticed that Darkleaf Cloth won't drop ASF below 5%, and I assume it would be the same for Mithral, if the devs had realized that the floor could ever come up.) In other words, I might ask my GM for Mithral Celestial Armor if I could avoid ASF with a class feature, but not Mithral Celestial Breastplate thinking that I'd avoid it because breastplate has a lower ASF than chainmail. +9 to AC for 0 Armor Check Penalty does have to be tucked away in the back of my mind, however! :)
Spell Lattice works fine for Mage Armor. That spell lasts long enough that you don't mind getting out an item in order to cast it. Use the wand for Shield spell.
Trying to use real armor means you will want a higher strength.
SmiloDan, thanks for explaining. I hope they start layering on complexity, like other abilities that let you get 1/2 proficiency for unproficient knowledge skills, charisma skills, or whatever. Preferably as feats or backgrounds you can take, rather than a class feature.
5e for skills you get no skill points. You get skills you are proficient in from your class + background. Its super simple like the rest of the system. 5e is a nice weekend read. System mastery takes about 4 sessions including min maxingFrom this and SmiloDan's math example, I get the impression that it's another try at designing a game for kids these days. Great. Hopefully, there will be migration from 5e to PF over time, and the resulting greater use of math skills, reading skills, attention span, logic, and more.
It's actually quite elegant. I'm the youngest in our group, and I'm almost in my mid-40s. Combat is super fast compared to PF. Also a lot more dynamic.
@lily you make good points. Still argue it is a bad archetype. A fleeting metarod would cost 1500, 5500, 12500. As for half duration how often do your fights last longer than 5 rounds? Otherwise you can just ignore that part after lv10. Honestly I've never had issues with duration.
@smilo My issues with 5e are game balance. Bards and fighters are just incontestable gods. Also combat really isn't faster just simpler
I think I have only seen Two-Weapon Fighters in action, one EK, one Champion, and neither seemed OP. I haven't seen a bard yet.
Ironic that Bards and Fighters are the OP characters in 5e, and not the Full Spellcasters that everybody would assume still reigns on top.
But, since I haven't played 5e, the idea that Bards and Fighters are OP classes seems not only unlikely, but would also require personal experience on my part to take seriously. Until then, I call speculation.
Bards ARE 9th level casters in 5E. They also have 3 skill proficiencies (in addition to the 2 from their background and possibly 1 or 2 from their race), Dex and Cha save proficiencies, and simple weapons and light armor proficiencies.
One archetype gives then 3 more skill proficiencies and more spells known (from any class), another gives proficiency in medium armor, shields, and martial weapons, and Extra Attack.
They know more spells than sorcerers, and at higher levels, can even learn spells from ANY class list: cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard.
Bardic inspiration is different; it's a Reaction that adds (or subtracts) +1d6 to 1d12 to a roll. They can also help heal during Short Rests. They add half their proficiency bonus on Skill Checks they lack proficiency in, and they get Expertise (double proficiency bonus) on 4 skills.
Okay. Doesn't explain how Fighters are OP though.
Either way, I'm still calling it speculation, because I've never played 5e.
Fighters have an Action Surge ability that gives them take 2 Actions in 1 turn, so they can get 2 "Full Attacks" in one round periodically.
They have a little bit of bonus-action self-healing too. Archetypes give them either wizard spells, Improved Critical at 3rd level, or Superior Dice that give them combat maneuvers that do extra damage and act like non-magical spells. They also get some nice Saving Throw re-rolls. I think the Champion archetype gets Fast Healing 10 or 15 when below half their max hp. Eldritch Knights can eventually attack as a bonus action even when they cast a cantrip or spell. Plus they get the most feats and/or Ability Score Increases.
I don't think they're over powered. I played with a group that had a cleric (me), fighter, wizard, rogue, ranger, and barbarian, and I think our two-weapon fighting eldritch knight only outperformed my cleric in the damage department--and my cleric was played as mostly a support caster and healer. Although his Action Surge novas were fun when he made 7 or 8 attacks in one round.
Oh, I hate to waffle AGAIN. I do. But the 5th player waffled, as it turns out, and he's now playing a warpriest, not a cleric. And while I haven't met him, the GM says he's a serious optimizer. So I'm betting he'll be using all his spells for buffs... (Although I'll be glad to see Warpriest in operation, and at the hands of a good player.)
So this is it. I've made a commitment to the GM. I've written a short backstory. I don't actually have a name yet... but I will. I'm back to the Spirit Guide Loracle. I'm actually looking forward to RPing someone who sees spirits everywhere and gets help from them at every turn. And at playing an aasimar who was raised by her evil cleric father, who murdered her mother as she gave birth. (Eeek -- where do I come up with these?) OK, the horror is over-the-top, but being torn between my blood & my upbringing, between the outraged (NG) goddess of the hearth & childbirth on the one hand and the NE goddess of the night & magic (who claims me) on the other. It's a great story, and I don't know how it will come out...
The biggest question, as I recall, was that of curse: haunted vs. tongues. I'm curious about the metagame implications...
I want to strongly thank those of you who leaped in to help on arcanist. I'm filing all of this away in my ideas folder! If nothing else, I'm now GMing two games. I'm bound to find an opportunity for a GMPC, in order to flex my muscles and try a new class. (The loracle is destined for a new campaign run by the GM of my third game, where I'm a player.)
Because of the discussion re: arcanists, I discovered part of why I'm enjoying playing a witch so much now...
Since the players don't have to spend time picking spells, I've been skipping spell selection in the morning, too. When we've gotten into a situation where I need a spell, I've simply asked myself if my character would have picked it. (And yes, I have actually told myself "No" on occasion.) Being the GM, I trust my answer! Of course, I'd never give a player that kind of latitude.
It has helped that my hedge witch really has in great part been converting whatever spells she might have picked into "Cure" spells, spontaneously. And it helped initially that as a little old lady, she shrank back from combat and only cast spells outside it. (I wanted her to be a very timid cook who could give the party potions & alchemical items at half-cost, but who would let the PCs shine at the moment of conflict.)
But then a PC went down right in front of her, and she indignantly put the nasty monster to sleep. After that, spell selections got more complex. Confronting the BBEG in the coming game, she's going to be a full party member -- despite my best-laid plans for her. So I did bog the whole game down last session in order to pick spells. Ironically, it took long enough that we ended the session prepped but still leaving camp...
It would clearly be better if I had several suites of spells that I could quickly pick from. Thanks for giving me the notion!