For the next campaign I'm about to play I wanna try to build and play a competent switch hitter, mainly focussed on extremely long ranged attacks (sniping), but being a powerful melee fighter when needed (and need it I will). Everything from Paizo is viable, 3rd party stuff is not. Zen Archer is banned by the DM. I've worked it out quite a lot, but I want some more opinions and hopefully advice. I'm playing a Half-Drow (Half-Elf), for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Curved Blade), because it's a powerful weapon that's Finessable. I multiclass in 3 classes, Fighter (Archer), Unchained Rogue (Sniper) & Monk (Far Strike Monk). Stats are at 1st lvl: Str 16; Dex 20; Con 15; Int 7; Wis 9; Cha 7.
For the feats:
F = Regular Feat
RF = Racial Feat
BF = Bonus Feat
HF = Hero Point Feat
Weapon Finesse + = Unchained Rogue Str -> Dex on damage
1. Fighter 1
- RF: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (ECB)
- F: Precise Shot
- BF: Point-Blank Shot
- HF: Rapid Shot
2. Rogue 1
- Weapon Finesse
3. Monk 1
- F: Many Shot
- BF: Far Shot
- Quick Draw
4. Fighter 2
- BF: Weapon Focus (LB)
5. Rogue 2
- F: Weapon Specialization (LB)
- BF: Deadly Aim
6. Rogue 3
- Weapon Finesse +
7. Fighter 3
- F: Power Attack
8. Fighter 4
- BF: Furious Focus
9. Fighter 5
- F: Signature Skill (Perception)
10. Fighter 6
- BF: Distance Thrower
11. Fighter 7
- F: Point Blank Master
12. Fighter 8
- BF: Clustered Shot
13. Fighter 9
- F: Weapon Focus (ECB)
14. Fighter 10
- BF: Weapon Specialisation (ECB)
15. Fighter 11
- F: Snap Shot
16. Fighter 12
- BF: Combat Reflexes
17. Fighter 13
- F: Improved Snap Shot
18. Fighter 14
- BF: Agile Manoeuvres
19. Fighter 15
- F: Trick Shooter
20. Fighter 16
- BF: Improved Trip
Some general thoughts in no particular order:
The default Fighter is a better archer than the Archer archetype, which is doubly true now that Advanced Weapon & Armor Training exist.
I wouldn't even bother with Weapon Finesse, the UnRogue dip, and the ECB proficiency since your STR is still decent. If you want to stick with Finesse, Weapon Finesse to improve its to-hit is probably enough, with the Advanced Weapon Training option Trained Grace if you want to bring its damage up as well.
9 WIS not only hurts Will saves (which is bad news bears) and Perception (recommended for all characters and very important for an "extreme range" specialist), but it's just a crying waste to dip Monk and dump WIS.
If your intention was to be an archer monk before the DM banned Zen Archer, look into a Sohei build. It's an archer on par (I'm told) with the Zen Archer, and it would switch-hit with unarmed strikes, which don't require you to take Quick Draw to switch between melee and ranged as a free action.
If you want to "snipe" (i.e. take single well-aimed shots at a distant target, rather than spamming the target with arrows) look into the Bolt Ace Gunslinger.
With bad INT, 2+INT skills for most of your career, no Human bonus to offset it, bad CHA, and no spellcasting, what will you be doing outside of combat?
Some general thoughts in no particular order:
The default Fighter is a better archer than the Archer archetype, which is doubly true now that Advanced Weapon & Armor Training exist.
I wouldn't even bother with Weapon Finesse, the UnRogue dip, and the ECB proficiency since your STR is still decent. If you want to stick with Finesse, Weapon Finesse to improve its to-hit is probably enough, with the Advanced Weapon Training option Trained Grace if you want to bring its damage up as well.
9 WIS not only hurts Will saves (which is bad news bears) and Perception (recommended for all characters and very important for an "extreme range" specialist), but it's just a crying waste to dip Monk and dump WIS.
If your intention was to be an archer monk before the DM banned Zen Archer, look into a Sohei build. It's an archer on par (I'm told) with the Zen Archer, and it would switch-hit with unarmed strikes, which don't require you to take Quick Draw to switch between melee and ranged as a free action.
If you want to "snipe" (i.e. take single well-aimed shots at a distant target, rather than spamming the target with arrows) look into the Bolt Ace Gunslinger.
With bad INT, 2+INT skills for most of your career, no Human bonus to offset it, bad CHA, and no spellcasting, what will you be doing outside of combat?
Thanks for your advice.
Personally, I do not agree on plain Fighter being better than Archer Fighter, although the loss of Armor Training is harsh.The Rogue dip is mostly for the ''Accuracy'' feature from Sniper, but gaining a free Weapon Finesse and some Sneak Attack is nice. Second level picking up Evasion. Rogue Talent is in this the same as a bonus feat and then third level for the Dex to damage, but also for extra Sneak Attack, Sneak Attack Range and of course skill points because I don't have a lot of them. I don't think I lose a lot here.
Penalty for Perception is negated by the Archer bonusses and Keen Senses, but I agree it hurts and maybe I'll buff it a little, but this means I need to take down some of my Con. Maybe a good trade off.
I never had that intention, but I can already see the comments telling me Zen Archer is a great option, but switch hitting with Unarmed Strikes is actually a pretty good idea. This also gives me a free Skill Focus in Perception
With sniping I just mean attacking from a really big distance.
Well, non of those stats impede my roleplaying ability much, so I have that going for me. I can be a great scout due to stealth and even perception (Maybe I should switch a lot more Con for Wis, but going into melee requires some decent HP. I could also switch out more Str, as it's mostly used for the damage on my bow in later levels). Being a little Rogueish and having the ''Finding Harleen'' trait gives some decent Skills.
Personally, I do not agree on plain Fighter being better than Archer Fighter, although the loss of Armor Training is harsh.
Loss of Weapon Training (and thus Advanced Weapon Training) is harsher, unless you can convince your DM to rule that Expert Archer counts as Weapon Training. Paizo's opinion, for some reason, is that it doesn't.
Default Fighter keeps Bravery, which with AWT Armed Bravery counts towards all Will saves. It also opens up Warrior Spirit, which is an enormous help for a Fighter. The first uses that come to mind for an archer are on-demand Distance, Bane [Current Target], Training (free combat feat), Cyclonic (to ignore wind effects and even shoot through liquid water), and Seeking (to ignore miss chances). I would go so far as to say Warrior Spirit alone puts default Fighter above Archer archetype, again if you go with Paizo's interpretation that pseudo-Weapon Training does not count as Weapon Training.
Edit: If you're not playing the Legacy of Fire AP, run the Finding Haleen trait by your DM first.
I would multi class weapon master fighter 4/ primal hunter barbarian X. The rage of this archetype gives +4 str +4cos +2 ranged attack roll, and thus is perfect.
Something like this:
Human for the bonus feat:
01 barb 01 PBS, PS, Exceptional Pull (free)
02 figh 01 Rapid Shot
03 barb 02 Quick Draw, reckless abandon +1
04 figh 02 Power Attack
05 barb 03 deadly aim
06 barb 04 superstituos, reckless abandon +2
07 figh 03 manyshot, weapon trainin +1
and so on
But this isn't "sniper", it's more classi archer that can hold himself in melee with some reliability
My main thought is that if you're playing a class that gets access to point blank master, there is virtually no point in playing a switch hitter.
Mechanically you're better off investing completely into archery. You can even wear shield spikes or a gauntlet so that you threaten an area and can provide flanking to others, if you're really worried about it.
Also, the poster who mentioned the non-archetyped fighter is a better archer is 100% correct.
If you would like to discuss why I can explain.
How are you picking up weapon specialization at 5th level? It requires 4 levels of fighter and at that point you only have 2.
Furthermore, Distance Thrower doesn't work with bows
also bear in mind that if you're running any AP at all you're not getting to lvl 20 unless it's WotR (completely different build as mythic) or WotW (3rd party) - pretty sure those are the only 2 that go to lvl 20 (I've also only got that 1 3rd party AP so others might)
Just as an aside, some of the best archer damage around lies in the Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest. Whether you use a bow or sling or thrown weapon, it's just such a good thing to have.
Personally, the Paladin also makes a terrific archer, but that requires a certain kind of playstyle.
Also, let me agree with everyone else: use the base Fighter, not an archetype, if you want to be a kickass archery Fighter. Just... trust us on this. Advanced Weapon Training gets you some amazing abilities.
As a discussion about the Archer archetype fighter, the following are reasons why it's a sub-optimal choice compared to a non-archetype fighter:
Hawkeye (Ex): At 2nd level, an archer gains a +1 bonus on Perception checks, and the range increment for any bow he uses increases by 5 feet. These bonuses increase by +1 and 5 additional feet for every 4 levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.
Before Advanced Weapon Training, losing Bravery wasn't a big deal. But now with Armed Bravery as an option to apply your Bravery bonus as a bonus to all will saves...the ability you get needs to be really good in return. What you're getting here is a perception check bonus, which is nice, but it caps at a +5 bonus. You also get to increase the range of your bow from 110' (for a composite longbow) by 25' up to 135'. Considering I've rarely had an encounter at 100' (mostly because battle maps just don't get that large) it's just very useful. If you're really worried about it, it's just better to pay for the distance enhancement.
Trick Shot (Ex): At 3rd level, an archer can choose one of the following combat maneuvers or actions: disarm, feint, or sunder. He can perform this action with a bow against any target within 30 feet, with a –4 penalty to his CMB. Every four levels beyond 3rd, he may choose an additional trick shot to learn. These maneuvers use up arrows as normal.
At 11th level, he may also choose from the following combat maneuvers: bull rush, grapple, trip. A target grappled by an arrow can break free by destroying the archer's arrow (hardness 5, hit points 1, break DC 13) or with an Escape Artist or CMB check (against the archer's CMD –4). This ability replaces armor training 1, 2, 3, and 4.
This is kind of neat, but you can accomplish many of these combat maneuvers using feats from Ranged Tactics Toolbox. Also, usually people aren't becoming archers for ranged maneuvers. If this was going to be your focus, this might be the only reason to use the archetype. That said you're giving up armor training. Since Advanced Armor Training came out, there are some very solid options to enhance your abilities. Not to mention a base fighter can run around in full plate with a +5 or more of dex to AC thanks to armor training and mithral.
Expert Archer (Ex): At 5th level, an archer gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with bows. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
This works a lot like weapon training, but doesn't count as weapon training. Advanced Weapon Training is really good. Also, this doesn't work with gloves of dueling.
Safe Shot (Ex): At 9th level, an archer does not provoke attacks of opportunity when making ranged attacks with a bow. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
You got point blank master at level 6. You don't need this.
Evasive Archer (Ex): At 13th level, an archer gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC against ranged attacks. This bonus increases to +4 at 17th level. This ability replaces weapon training 3.
Meh...weapon training is still too good.
Volley (Ex): At 17th level, as a full-round action, an archer can make a single bow attack at his highest base attack bonus against any number of creatures in a 15-foot- radius burst, making separate attack and damage rolls for each creature. This ability replaces weapon training 4.
Kind of neat, but you had to play through 17 levels of crap to get here. It's also not that common to get surrounded by a large number of weak enemies. You're usually better off focus all attacks on 1 enemy, rather than trying to do a little damage to all enemies.
Ranged Defense (Ex): At 19th level, an archer gains DR 5/— against ranged attacks. In addition, as an immediate action, he can catch an arrow fired at him and shoot it any target he chooses, as if he had the Snatch Arrows feat. This ability replaces armor mastery.
Advanced Armor Training can get you like DR 11 on its own.
Ultimately, hopefully you can see why the archetype is bad. Even before Advanced Weapon and Armor Training it was bad, it has only gotten worse since then. The biggest deal is that gloves of dueling don't work with this archetype, and the only thing you get that isn't easily replicated is the ability to perform maneuvers with your bow.
Or play a Kineticist, simple build, single class effective at melee and range with a single feat (finesse) and a couple infusions (kinetic blade and whip) and can also bring a few tricks to the table.
This is what I would suggest.
Furthermore, Distance Thrower doesn't work with bows
I know, but I kinda like the element of being a great knife thrower as well, since knives are easier to sneak into cities (as larger cities in this campaign will have a ''leave your weapons at the door and no magic inside the city'' rule)
My main thought is that if you're playing a class that gets access to point blank master, there is virtually no point in playing a switch hitter.
Mechanically you're better off investing completely into archery. You can even wear shield spikes or a gauntlet so that you threaten an area and can provide flanking to others, if you're really worried about it.
I know this, but I find the character concept intriguing and want to play it.
How are you picking up weapon specialization at 5th level? It requires 4 levels of fighter and at that point you only have 2.
My bad, I hadn't fully checked all the prereqs, it's fixed now.
As a discussion about the Archer archetype fighter, the following are reasons why it's a sub-optimal choice compared to a non-archetype fighter:
Hawkeye (Ex): At 2nd level, an archer gains a +1 bonus on Perception checks, and the range increment for any bow he uses increases by 5 feet. These bonuses increase by +1 and 5 additional feet for every 4 levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.Before Advanced Weapon Training, losing Bravery wasn't a big deal. But now with Armed Bravery as an option to apply your Bravery bonus as a bonus to all will saves...the ability you get needs to be really good in return. What you're getting here is a perception check bonus, which is nice, but it caps at a +5 bonus. You also get to increase the range of your bow from 110' (for a composite longbow) by 25' up to 135'. Considering I've rarely had an encounter at 100' (mostly because battle maps just don't get that large) it's just very useful. If you're really worried about it, it's just better to pay for the distance enhancement.
This is kind of neat, but you can accomplish many of these combat maneuvers using feats from Ranged Tactics Toolbox. Also, usually people aren't becoming archers for ranged maneuvers. If this was going to be your focus, this might be the only reason to use the archetype. That...Trick Shot (Ex): At 3rd level, an archer can choose one of the following combat maneuvers or actions: disarm, feint, or sunder. He can perform this action with a bow against any target within 30 feet, with a –4 penalty to his CMB. Every four levels beyond 3rd, he may choose an additional trick shot to learn. These maneuvers use up arrows as normal.
At 11th level, he may also choose from the following combat maneuvers: bull rush, grapple, trip. A target grappled by an arrow can break free by destroying the archer's arrow (hardness 5, hit points 1, break DC 13) or with an Escape Artist or CMB check (against the archer's CMD –4). This ability replaces armor training 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Well, you convinced me, I shall look into the Advaced Weapon & Armor Training than. Any special Archery recommendations?
I don't feel that you are gaining as much as you are losing by picking up rogue/monk. You lose one point in your BAB for each dip. This means set yourself back two levels for iterative attacks and extra bonus from deadly aim/power attack. There are also a few important feats that you will have to wait many levels for (like weapon specialization).
I could see rogue, for skill points, but you are better off moving some dex into int (I'm assuming some kind of point buy system) if this is your intent. Although, honestly I'd run a different main class if I was concerned about skill points, such as a ranger.
I must be missing something with rogue. I don't see a reason to take it.
One other issue I run into with a switch hitter is weapon specialization ends up being a key component of the damage that is dealt. Then I switch weapons and no longer have that bonus. For this reason alone, I would pick ranger over fighter. Maybe Slayer would work well, I havent tried it in this role.
I recommend Straight Fighter. Lots of Good options now available to you via AWT, AAT, and Item Mastery Feats. To be good in Melee all you need is Power Attack, Full BaB and a weapon that can be 2 handed. Most your other feats will be archery focused.
One glaring problem with "Switch Hitters" is most people end up picking up Point Blank Master and tend to never put the bow down again.
Hey everyone! I'm new to the paladin class as well. I am building a level 2 paladin. I am not sure what the best race or weapon would be for the archetype called the hospitaler. I only have 700 gold starting out. I would like to heal but still be able to do good damage. We can only use core, featured, standard and uncommon races. Right now, I am favoring human or aasimar. Any help would be much appreciated.
Hey everyone! I'm new to the paladin class as well. I am building a level 2 paladin. I am not sure what the best race or weapon would be for the archetype called the hospitaler. I only have 700 gold starting out. I would like to heal but still be able to do good damage. We can only use core, featured, standard and uncommon races. Right now, I am favoring human or aasimar. Any help would be much appreciated.
You should start a new thread instead of necromancing this one.