Scaled fist / Enlightened Paladin

[hjs102]

Question on the Confident defense ability from the enlightened paladin. It adds Charismas modifier to you Dexterity modifier for AC, but the bonus is still Dexterity. Scaled Fist adds Charisma to AC. I know there was an FAQ for an oracle ability + Enlightened Paladin, but in that case Dexterity was replaced by Charisma and you could not add Charisma to Charisma. Would Confident defense work with the Scaled fist AC bonus?

[David knott 242]

No. Adding Cha mod to Dex mod just means that the total of Dex mod and Cha mod is subject to Max Dex and other limitations on Dex to AC. One of the Cha mod additions would have to be a typed bonus for you to be able to use both of them.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

David knott 242 wrote:

No. Adding Cha mod to Dex mod just means that the total of Dex mod and Cha mod is subject to Max Dex and other limitations on Dex to AC. One of the Cha mod additions would have to be a typed bonus for you to be able to use both of them.

I disagree. Just because you're increasing your Dexterity Modifier to AC by an amount equal to your Charisma modifier doesn't mean it stops becoming a Dexterity Modifier, nor does it count as both modifiers for the purposes of stacking (as that's adding wording that isn't there; in other words, houseruling what the ability actually says it does).

You also even pointed out that it's limited by MDB, is lost when Flat-Footed, and so on, which are characteristics solely of a Dexterity Modifier/Bonus. If it was a simple Charisma modifier, it wouldn't have that restriction (whereas the Oracle revelation specifically notes that it's limited by such effects, and would lack that text if it was originally assumed).

@ hjs102: The FAQ was released back when Divine Protected as a feat was horribly overpowered for Oradins (Divine Grace + Divine Protection getting 2x Charisma to Saves was stupidly overpowered). It inadvertantly would've applied to the Oracle ability, since you replaced the Dexterity Modifier with a Charisma Modifier, and you then proceed to add your Charisma Modifier again.

In this case, the Charisma to Dexterity doesn't change that it's a Dexterity Modifier (and therefore is subject to MDB and Flat-Footed removal), and that the Scaled Fist AC bonus would stack with it as it's considered a different type (Charisma Modifier) than the other benefit (Dexterity Modifier).

[Chess Pwn]

Highly debated. No side can provide proof to convince the majority of the other side.

[James Risner]

Table variance
Ask your GM or avoid

Actually the double stat mod FAQ came from double DEX to trip via agile maneuvers + fury fall.

[Akari - #220489]

Aren't they applying two different types of AC, one is a bonus to the dexterity AC and the other is an charisma bonus to the AC?

Irorian paladin:

Irorian paladin adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class.

U. Monk:

When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any)to his AC.

Scaled fist: Any of the scaled fist’s class abilities that make calculations based on her Wisdom (...)are instead based on her Charisma.

So, the wording of U. Monk would be: When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Charisma bonus (if any)to his AC.

Both archetypes are applying the bonus to different types of AC, aren't they?

Something like AC = 10 + Dex_bonus(DEX+CHA) + CHA_bonus + ...

Am I missing something?

-Akari

[James Risner]

Both ultimately have Cha going to AC as type Cha.

But expect table variance as some will say the Cha is added directly to Dex and therefore not cha.

Also we should use the right name. Irorian Paladin. Enlightened is a d20pfsrd modification and will confuse many.

Note: I've played multiple Irorian Paladin builds at multiple tables. I'd love to have this work for double Cha to AC. I've learned it's best (especially in Pfs) to avoid table variance things or be a sad panda. I just don't think this comes up enough to hope for a FAQ.

[Akari - #220489]

James Risner Owner wrote:

Both ultimately have Cha going to AC as type Cha.

So, if something says that you can add your CHA as deflection AC it would not stack because, at the end, you are adding as type Cha?

And I thought I've already grasped the idea of stacking in pathfinder. :(

[James Risner]

Cha to ac is type Cha
Cha to ac as deflection is type deflection
Cha to ac as armor bonus is type armor

[James Risner]

Akari - #220489 wrote:

Both archetypes are applying the bonus to different types of AC, aren't they?

Something like AC = 10 + Dex_bonus(DEX+CHA) + CHA_bonus + ...

I just noticed this.

Ultimately it's being added to AC.
It is argued the Cha to DEX bonus changes Cha to DEX. That is argued against by saying you now have double DEX (one from DEX and one from Cha "as a DEX bonus" implied) and therefore doesn't stack.

The key to stacking the same ability is the use of "as a X bonus" phrase.

[Akari - #220489]

And I guess the "pro-stacking" side argue that what the Paladin is doing is "breaking" a general rule of calculating your Dex bonus to armor class by applying a specific rule and, therefore, the AC "formula" is still the same.

Usual way to calculate your Dex bonus is:
- Dex_bonus= Dex_modifier

With the specific rule would be:
- Dex_bonus= Dex_modifier + Cha_modifier(up to Paladin level)

And the AC formula would still be the same

Usual way
- AC=10 + Dex_bonus + other_modifiers(Cha_bonus)
After specific rule
- AC=10 + Dex_bonus + other_modifiers(Cha_bonus)

That is tricky!!! But I guess that the argument favors the stacking side since the Paladin rule specify a new way of calculating your Dex_bonus (nothing more and nothing else).

So, if I want to play in PFS the best would be play safe and, until a FAQ is done, not making this build. :S

[James Risner]

Akari - #220489 wrote:

So, if I want to play in PFS the best would be play safe and, until a FAQ is done, not making this build. :S

That's what I do, avoid.

Another option is ask every GM how it works and deal with the cases where it's rules to not stack. I did this with an overrun build and got tired of asking how they think overrun works.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Yeah, a lot of GMs will rule that the ability won't stack since they think either the ability is a Charisma bonus (which the rules don't actually say), or the ability should be a Charisma bonus (which can actually be debatable). All I pointed out is that RAW, they stack. A GM is certainly within his rights, PFS or not, to screw you over. Because that's just how GMs work.

In such a case, I'm okay with GMs ruling the latter (though if that's the case, they wouldn't be restricted by MDB and so on like an Oracle's Sidestep Secret would be), since this tells me they understand what the RAW is. But I'm not okay with GMs ruling the former, since that tells me they don't understand what the RAW is, and is something that a PFS GM shouldn't be ignorant of.