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So this has been brought up in a game and I am very curious if there is any official rules stating a slam (primary attack #1) and a claw (primary attack #2) cannot be used in a combination. Is the slam attack its own, overriding attack that says its either me or the claw and it can't be both. Or can a beast with 2 claws and a slam attack mix up the old formula of claw-claw-bite (three primaries) with claw-claw-slam (also three primaries).
A slam isn't another claw. That's a rules misreading that infects this forum. Post the creature you are asking about instead of a vague combination of attacks.
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2 claw are on biped and 4 or more claws are on quadrupeds or higher.
So unless you can explain which limb is being used for the slam that doesn't include one of your claws being used, you can't use both.
Cant a slam attack use the torso and just hit them by slamming into them? I haven't found anything saying a slam attack takes up hands. If it takes up an appendage you still have feet to kick them for the slam attack.
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Okay, for a critter example, we're actually going to go the undead route. The Juju-zombie template gives the critter a slam attack, if it didn't already have a slam attack. Base critter retains everything that it once had.
Base critter is a boar, per se. A boar has a gore attack. A juju zombie boar has a gore attack and a slam attack. Which are two primary attacks, like a cat who has two claws.
Under the Universal Monster Rules, there is no ruling that says anything about limb limitations.
Under the Combat rules, there's this blurb
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
This states that I can't make a manufactured weapon attack and a claw attack using the same limb.
But a slam attack isn't a claw attack (but -is- a natural attack), nor is it a manufactured weapon attack. Therefore, by RAW, can be used with the same limb. The limit is how many natural attacks the critter has, as far as I can see. If you grapple a cheetah and it uses its right paw to make two claw attacks, instead of using both paws, I think the same thing would happen either way: the grappler gets clawed.
Or, no limbs at all, as all oozes have slam attacks. Oozes do not have limbs and are just blobs.
So in my boar example, if the boar gores some guy then uses its side to bash itself into the guy, then is that just fine? As long as the boar isn't wielding a manufactured weapon, like a tetsubo on its side?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So unless you can explain which limb is being used for the slam that doesn't include one of your claws being used, you can't use both.That's not the actual rule. You cant use a limb for both manufactured weapons and natural weapons and you cant have multiple instances of the same natural weapon on any limb. But you can attack with multiple natural weapons with a single limb. There is no actual prohibition on it, it just gets thrown around a lot on this forum.
Find me a bestiary monster with claws and slam and I'll concede.
Otherwise I'll point out that you don't have a rule prohibiting it directly because it doesn't normally happen.
For example, the rules on stacking magical effects don't say non-magical also. But those stacking rules were the basis for blocking Improved Natural Attack stacking with Strong Jaw. So some times the rules don't directly cover a scenario, but would be applied when a FAQ is answered. This is a similar case.
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I couldn't find any definition of a slam attack on the PRD.
There are some cases where templates give an extra slam attack in addition to other attacks (Juju zombie) while others must give up their other attacks when they get a slam attack (Petitioner template, amongst others). An eidelon must have limbs to get a slam, or must give up its claw attacks from its base form.
Looking at the bestiary, many critters like slugs and oozes possess slam attacks without needing appendages - though oozes do have pseudopods, so the distinction is iffy. Massive creatures like mastodons often get slam attacks, which seem to just involve smashing any part of their body into a foe, whereas others like flesh golems appear to use their arms for slam attacks, since they get two.
The real question is, how are you getting this slam attack? The creature stat block should make it clear whether this slam is in addition to other attacks or in place of them.
If anyone can find a definition of a slam attack, I'm all ears.
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I couldn't find any definition of a slam attack on the PRD.
The real question is, how are you getting this slam attack? The creature stat block should make it clear whether this slam is in addition to other attacks or in place of them.
If anyone can find a definition of a slam attack, I'm all ears.
That's probably because there is none. All of this discussion is wonderful, by the by. Okay, so let's recap.
Juju Zombie Template, to the question above, grants the slam attack to the base critter.
Attacks: A juju zombie retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. It also gains a slam attack that deals damage based on the juju zombie’s size, but as if it were one size category larger than its actual size.
Note that the template grants a slam attack to the base critter and not extra limbs. But how can it perform this slam attack without extra limbs, the masses cry!
Next slide; a small quote from the Natural Attack section of Combat.
Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks).
The template grants the slam attack to the base critter. So it has a slam attack in addition to its normal attacks, as it retains those.
So a boar, whom had a gore attack before dying a tragic death, is now raised as a Juju Zombie. Boar A gains the slam attack, or, the capability of performing a slam attack. What stops Boar A from gore-slamming its way to victory in its full-attack rage? We won't even touch Juju Cheetahs; I mean, if we can't settle on Gore+Slam, or Claw+Claw+Slam, how can we wrap our heads around Bite+Claw+Claw+Slam?
I'm funny to myself first and foremost. But I'm certain that slam attacks don't involve limbs. Just like you can unarmed strike with your butt.
And if my sword wielding warrior gets claw attacks, it doesn't mean he can use them and the sword at the same time either. The bonus slam is meant to insure that attackless creatures get an attack, and it just sits as an extra tool that can be swapped in for one of the claws. using a template, which has to be agnostic since it gets applied to a lot of things and cannot account for all of the interactions of the rules, is a bad idea.
For a better example, you can see that slams typically go with arms when looking at big high level monsters like the Marilith. It is a six armed creature that has two different attack routines- one with six swords, and one with six slam attacks. The fact that these are separate routines, and that both match up to the number of arms, demonstrates the fact that the slams are meant to be an arm thing.
While some creatures like oozes slam without arms... they are not humanoid in shape. Things like the 'talons go on biped feet' FAQ already show that natural attacks are somewhat affected by the body shape of the creature you put them on. So oozes are a terrible example since they are just amorphous blobs, and their attacks are drescribed as slams for a lack of a better word. But on most of the high level humanoid shapped monsters, you might arms=slams.
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The Marilith can't escape the rule that it can't use a manufactured weapon attack and a natural attack with the same limb. And I don't believe there's such a thing as an attackless critter.
Checking other threads, Dolphins have slam attacks and no arms. Therefore arms cannot always = slam attacks. And if there ever was a Juju Zombie Dolphin, it would have 2 slam attacks. And if there was a Juju Zombie peasant, he would have his puny weapon attack and a slam attack, but he couldn't do both, as that's a manufactured weapon and a natural attack.
But critters that don't use manufactured weapons usually attack with all of their natural attacks. So the question still stands; can a beast use all of its natural attacks in a full attack action, even if those attacks are Claw+Bite+Slam+Wing+Wing+Tentacle?
When i say attackless, I mean 'level 1 commoner with nothing in his hands'. The only attack he can do is an unarmed attack... which is nonlethal and draws AoO since he doesn't have IUS. The template's slam is meant to make them more effective than that.
And as i said- limbless creatures is a terrible example to compare to a humanoid.
The 'no claws on feet' FAQ shows a clear distinction of body types for where attacks go. People asked 'can I put claws on my feet? Tigers have claws on their feet.' But it was decided 'only quadrupeds can have claws on their feet. Bipeds have talons on their feet.'
This shows that the body type is a clear line in the sand for comparing creatures when it comes to natural attacks.
So yes- limbless creatures get to do slam attacks without arms. But that is simply because it is the best fit for describing what they can do. It isn't meant to carry over to every creature.
From what can be told from the designs released, Bipeds have their slams on their arms. Now, if you can get me examples of creatures that have arms that don't use those arms for slams, then we can talk.
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Okay, that's all understandable. So if a biped has its slam attacks on its arms, where does a quadruped have its slam attacks? If a boar gains the slam attack from the template mentioned, and it doesn't appear near its head where the goar attack is, then could it be possible for it to Gore+Slam? Because people are talking about the Dolphin's slam attack being on its nose...or tail. So snout or rump with regards to the boar.
Pfffft!
You don't need to "locate" where a slam attack is coming from. It's an abstraction.
But you also can't arbitrarily gift a slam attack to just any creature.
This whole thread is built on the question "can I combine slam and claw attacks?" I suspect the answer is that you could, if you had them.
The ways to add a slam attack to a creature that already has claw attacks appear very few and far between. Mention was made of the Juju zombie template (which in my opinion is an ill-considered oversight) and no other has surfaced. Other templates specifically replace a claw or both claws with a slam.
But critters that don't use manufactured weapons usually attack with all of their natural attacks. So the question still stands; can a beast use all of its natural attacks in a full attack action, even if those attacks are Claw+Bite+Slam+Wing+Wing+Tentacle?
Question is, how can a beast get such a disparate array of attack modes?
AFAIK, with the exception of the Juju zombie template, slam attacks are generally given to critters that *don't* have a discernable array of attack forms, simply an abstract brute strength attack. Once you add in claws, bites, tentacles and such like, these attack forms already adequately represent the critter's brute strength, so no "slam" attack is necessary. Exceptions appear to include really big creatures which can injure or kill just by bumping into a guy.
So I want to ask a question back to the OP: Just how do you propose getting both claw and slam attacks on your PC's chassis?
Melee: A vampire gains a slam attack if the base creature didn’t have one.
Nothing about replacing claws with slams here.
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Pfffft!
You don't need to "locate" where a slam attack is coming from. It's an abstraction.But you also can't arbitrarily gift a slam attack to just any creature.
This whole thread is built on the question "can I combine slam and claw attacks?" I suspect the answer is that you could, if you had them.
So I want to ask a question back to the OP: Just how do you propose getting both claw and slam attacks on your PC's chassis?
All beautiful statements. But it's not about a PC, but rather, this whole thread is about a boar. One lonely boar with a gore attack, that died and became a Juju Zombie. Juju Zombie granted this boar with a slam attack as well as the gore attack, but others have stated that he cannot both Slam and Gore as a full attack.
The boar is the chassis and the Juju Template is how I get a slam attack onto the boar. Though I didn't think of vampires. If only vampires were a choice of animate dead, you know?
Any necromancer that ever was can run around and raise Juju zombies, arbitrarily gifting slam attacks to any creature.
There's a number of options to get slam attacks. A Vigilant archetype comes to mind as does the undead Form or something such spell. Aquiring claws is rather simple...
So this isn't a hypothetical scenario.
As creatures with arms tend to use those for slams (Golems) I'd side with those who argue a slam will use you hand so no combining slams and claws unless you have 4 or more hands.
Another thing that might be of interest:
Melee +1 greataxe +20/+15 (1d12+16/×3), bite +14 (1d4+5 plus energy drain), slam +15 (1d4+5 plus energy drain)
This is a vampire barbarian who uses both arms for a great axe, has a bite attack (from a rage power, maybe?) and can still use the slam attack in the same routine.
Though, I realize that the Monster codex isn't the best rules source.
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Another thing that might be of interest:
Melee +1 greataxe +20/+15 (1d12+16/×3), bite +14 (1d4+5 plus energy drain), slam +15 (1d4+5 plus energy drain)This is a vampire barbarian who uses both arms for a great axe, has a bite attack (from a rage power, maybe?) and can still use the slam attack in the same routine.
Though, I realize that the Monster codex isn't the best rules source.
So this example shows the slamming beast wielding a weapon that takes up both his arms to swing. So he must be butt-bumping, biting, and swinging an axe all in the same full-attack action.
So I want to ask a question back to the OP: Just how do you propose getting both claw and slam attacks on your PC's chassis?
Not the OP but: Agathiel vigilante 2nd level + animal form with claws = PC chassis with both. You could also take a Deinonychus for 2 talons, bite, foreclaws and 2 slams.
An alchemist with Monstrous Graft and Feral mutagen can have both.
A shaman with the Wood spirit and natural claws, like a catfolk, can also gain a slam using tree limb.
Evolving armor plus a race with claws.
Undead Anatomy spell plus Draconic Bloodline.
I'm sure there are more but that's off the top of my head.
So this example shows the slamming beast wielding a weapon that takes up both his arms to swing. So he must be butt-bumping, biting, and swinging an axe all in the same full-attack action.Another thing that might be of interest:
Melee +1 greataxe +20/+15 (1d12+16/×3), bite +14 (1d4+5 plus energy drain), slam +15 (1d4+5 plus energy drain)This is a vampire barbarian who uses both arms for a great axe, has a bite attack (from a rage power, maybe?) and can still use the slam attack in the same routine.
Though, I realize that the Monster codex isn't the best rules source.
Tanuki has "Melee mwk quarterstaff +7 (1d6+2), mwk quarterstaff +7 (1d6+1), slam +2 (1d6+1)" using a double weapon AND a slam: Bestiary 3.
Juju Zombie granted this boar with a slam attack as well as the gore attack, but others have stated that he cannot both Slam and Gore as a full attack.
A juju zombie retains all the natural weapons... It also gains a slam attack
It's ambiguous what this slam attack represents on a boar (or on anything else) but I'd certainly allow it. It makes sense to me that a creature with sharp tusks would be more dangerous as a zombie than one without any natural attacks in its pre-zombie state.
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You know, those Tanuki aren't slamming attack with any...uhh, sanctified limb parts. Tanuki Slam Attack
You know, those Tanuki aren't slamming attack with any...uhh, sanctified limb parts. Tanuki Slam Attack
LOL I KNOW what it should be used with, going by mythology, but the rules never say what it's slamming with. Also note the image in the book, page 259. You'll note NO enlarged body parts. ;)
Going by the rules, it's got the same options for attacks as juju's and vampires for slams.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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For what it's worth, I tried to make an Agathiel Vigilante using 2x Slam and HeroLab deactivated my Slam's when I activated my two hand weapon.
I still think you can't have 2x slam and 2x claw (or a 2HW) at the same time due to the limb issue. I'd accept a FAQ saying I'm wrong, as I'd really rather be wrong.
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I still think you can't have 2x slam and 2x claw (or a 2HW) at the same time due to the limb issue.
The only extant RAW answer resides in the method used to get a slam attack in the first place. Some methods specify that you sacrifice a claw or weapon attack for the slam, others don't.
It looks like yet another of those grey areas where the PF devs never really thought about what exactly a slam attack represents. Perhaps because the very existence of the slam attack is an ultimate catch-all for attack that can't be defined more precisely. From a vampire's or a flesh golem's slam to an ooze's amorphic pseudopod, slam attacks cover a lot of ground.
This said, I don't expect to see a lot of Juju zombie PCs any time soon. <g>
Most areas seem to say Slam is an either/or attack, you can replace your claw attacks with a Slam, and you can use weapons or a Slam. Feels like fishing to justify adding it to an attack steam chain, just because they have it. A Fighter carrying a Longsword, a Shield and a Longbow can attack with Longsword and Shield or the Longbow, but not both. He also can not shoot a bow while wielding a shield, this are just options.
That being said, if you find a creature that shows it can use it's natural attacks with the slam added in, you can, for that creature. I think these are exceptions though, and most seem to be listed as options.