So I ran a session last night and my group is nearing its 2nd year on RotRL. No spoilers, but they are slowly approaching the end of book 5. However ever since they hit around lvl 10 or so combat has really slowed down. Now they are lvl 14 and combat is like wading through quick sand. The session lasted for 6 hours yesterday they explored 1 "wing" and engaged in 1 combat which took most of the session against a single mustard-like foe.
I run a group that varies from 4-6 people. This last session consisted of 4 people.
The groups tabletop rpg experience has been from RotRL. I'm self taught dming, I've never played pathfinder as a character and I need advice. When we started 2ish years ago I would give them a +2 to hit if when their turn came around and they could immediately tell me what they were going to do. I stopped giving that bonus about a year into play. Now I feel as if I shouldn't have to give them that bonus but I don't know how to keep the game moving.
I've informed them, that because turns take so long to get through(for the most part). That you should have what your doing ready when it becomes your turn. That doesn't work. I don't really want to go back to the plus to hit, but will still consider it. Does having the enemies use avg damage take anything away from the game? (I would spend less time on my turns)
I don't feel it's appropriate to give them a negative to hit for taking too long. Anyways how can I prevent combat from becoming such a slog? What do you guys do?
Thank you for your time,
H2Os
There are many tricks to speed up combat that can be found in other threads on the forums, but ultimately the most important means of speeding up combat is that each player must be ready when his or her turn begins. You have said that you already know this needs to be done. Maybe some of the players will change over the years, maybe not. A groups' chemistry will always be difficult to change. Nothing will change until the players have their own motivation to be ready. I don't believe that bonuses and penalties will have a lasting effect.
Had the group all been friends for a long time before the gaming group started? You'll probably have more luck getting players to be on top of things with a new group that doesn't have history.
We started using folded over 3 by 5 cards to track initiative. We arrange the cards in order, with a counter on who's turn it is. That way, everyone knows who's turn is next and can plan accordingly.
Rolling Attack Rolls and Damage Rolls at the same time speeds up combat, as well as rolling all attack rolls and all damage dice at the same time, which can help with lots of iterative and two-weapon attacks and claw/claw/bite/rake/rake/wing/wing/tail, etc.
Make sure everyone knows what their characters are capable of doing, as well as the rules for what they can do.
Write or print out the rules for spells, combat maneuvers, grappling, skills, feats, magic items, and any other commonly used rule set.
If you can polymorph or wildshape, have a version of your new form on your character sheet, or have a special character sheet for the new form.
If you summon, have all your summoned monsters and allies statted out with their own character sheets. Include any effects on them, like the Augment Summoning feat and common buffs.
Try to customize your character sheet so you can find what you need on it. I use looseleaf paper, and my friends sometimes tease me about it, but I know where everything is on it because I wrote it down myself. I didn't just fill out a pre-printed character sheet or let a computer do all my stats for me. The pre-game time investment in doing all the prep work myself means I can take my turn nice and quickly. You remember stuff better when you write it down yourself.
Also, try to fit everything on 1 character sheet. That way, you don't have to flip through pages and pages when it's your turn or when you are affected by something on someone else's turn. The only exception I had to having a 1 page character sheet was a druid that had an animal companions, multiple wildshape forms, and many statted out summoned monsters. But my main character sheet was still just 1 page.
Also, write the different rule subsystems you commonly use, including spell cards, feats, and racial and class features. Also, complex magic items.
Pre-calculate everything. Don't try to calculate your BAB every time you swing your axe. Have a line for regular axe, raging axe, power attack axe, raging power attack axe, even fatigued axe for when your rage is over.
Also, have a scrap paper for temporary buffs, like aid, bless, bull strength, enlarge, haste, heroism, etc., plus any penalties you might suffer.
TL/DR:
Basically, prepare ahead of time, and your dedication will pay dividends in efficiency while playing.
Pontificating edge rules is probably the fastest way, though I find the best thing to say is "Okay, I've not heard that rule but after the session I will do research and get back to you. For now it works like this, lets progress."
I recorded a session I ran and then listened to it the next day, specifically focusing on what made the combat grind to a halt. With every group it will be different due to player and rule interactions so find the weak spots and come up with solutions to them.
For example, I ran a session with the Occult book added and that was a mistake, because I don't understand how the kineticist works and reading the class page feels like I'm playing some whole other game, this is my failing as a GM and hung up the game a lot as we tried to figure out exactly how much water a water kineticist could control (Literally liter by liter division due to the rules).
- Flash cards for spells
- Egg timers for turns
- Give out hero points for fast and efficient players
Also prompt your players with fast descriptions
"The orc is right in your face, what do you do?!"
Your impetus will be infectious and spur players to keep up.
Let your players know how much dr/energy res the monster has after the first few hits. That way they can just give you the sum of their damage after rolling the dice rather than giving you each number individually
Encourage players to increase their system mastery and quick decision making. Even just a cool description like "with practiced efficiency he places a quick volley of arrows in the dragon's maw" or other similiar phrases encourage quicker play. Putting a lot of energy and excitement into your voice when you describe what is happening is another easy trick to keep players engaged and wanting to do stuff quicker.
Reducing defensive stats while increasing enemy offensive stats quickens fights if you want less rounds. As does using less weak enemies and focusing on more powerful foes
Using spell attack rules from Unchained helps some
Write down your pc's defensive stats so you don't have to ask each time(ac, touch ac, dr, etc)
Let players and NPCs take average on damage, particularly spellcasters. It takes a while to add up 20d6. This lowers RNG but that typically favors players
Online dice rollers? Not for everyone but they certainly speed me up when I dm
Group initiative for players. Basically when players don't have enemies between them let them act in whatever order they want/are ready in. Still let those that got higher take their turn first if they want to AND ARE READY.
When you read up for the nights game be ready for not only each monsters abilities but plan how they want to fight. Just a general turn 1, 2, and 3 plan.
Having more than four players can *really* slow things down. This said, any PF games over, say, 10th level or so are bound to go slowly, simply because you have to have so many high-powered adversaries to even hope to give the party a mild challenge.
We have a similar situation in one of the two groups I play in. A couple of the guys still don't seem able to keep track of all their hit and damage bonuses in a variety of situations. That'll slow things to a crawl as we laboriously point out the places on the character sheet where all that info is inevitably written down already.
Spellcasters who don't know all their spells are the worst offenders, followed by pet classes or summoning classes who don't have all the relevant stats of their ancillary critters at hand. But even a simple fighter can clog things up if he doesn't have his mind wrapped around all the variable bonuses that can come into play, especially in the mid to high-level range.
So what can you do?
- Use an effective initiative-tracking system, and have your most effective player track it.
- Once players are in contact and just attacking stuff, let their turns overlap, as long as they aren't interrupted by enemy turns. If the guy who actually had initiative does something that would change player B's actions, you can always retcon it, but usually this will gain you time.
- Trust your players not to cheat on their to hit and damage rolls, and give them the AC numbers they need to hit (as well as miss chance roll & so on). Then they can just report back on total damage delivered once all their dice are rolles, and you can be handling another player or two while the dice are still falling.
- Be sure to know the capabilities of all your NPCs and critters so you don't have to consult too many books. I generally print out stat blocks and even add a few feat and spell descriptions on the printout, to be sure that I as the DM am accellerating things as much as possible.
With the group where I am a player, it seems to take sooo long between one guy being told it's his turn, his declaration of intent, his dice rolling and the constant back and forth with the DM "Does a 23 hit?" "Does a 19 hit" and the final damage report, which is further stretched when he remembers "oh, and 3 points of fire damage" and similar stuff. IF this sounds like one of your typical games, then you need to react and do something, or else quickly plan for the end of the campaign and the beginning of a new lower-level one.
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I don;t know how much more I can add to the advice above me but...
I am fairly strict.
If a player isn't ready I give a short time. If after 30 seconds they don't have a plan of action I delay them and move on.
If a player forgets damage or actions then it doesn't happen.
After a few rounds my players generally learn they target numbers for AC and such.
If a player is obviously not paying attention I don't give out information, if they were distracted for a good reason I will fill them in. Good reasons include getting a call for spouse for important reasons. Deciding to watch youtube or go to websites unrelated to the game is never a good reason.
I use Hero Lab and use the tactical app to do initiative sequence, when I have a random encounter happen and don't use that I have specific players keep track of initiative.
Unfortunately you need to be tough at times to keep the game running. When players see you want to keep the game on track, they generally work with you.
1) Get a handle on rules debates. How harsh you want to be is your own issue, but suggest players discuss ahead of time with you how their abilities work and interact and interesting applications of them they have in mind. Independent of specific rule adjudication, this also keeps you from being blind sided. Overall there needs to be understanding that the middle of game play is not a good time for a rules discussion. If a quick sentence or two can quickly remind of over-looked rule, fine, but mid-game debates over rules shouldn't be seen as normal. Likewise, rules elements that you aren't comfortable with (like Occcult stuff you mentioned) shouldn't be brought into the game before you've gone over them and discussed them outside of the game. If you don't have time for that, then it's best to wait on introducing them to the game.
Honestly I don't know why you are using beyond Core + maybe APG if this is your first experience with PRPG. I would also advice to hold off on expanding rules options in your next game, because gettings the basics of the Core down is most important part and there's certainly things you've missed so far. Constraining future spells/feats/etc in your current game would probably help.
2) Quick decision making once it comes to turn. The entire round is supposed to be 6 seconds, why should players get more than that to decide what they're doing when it comes around to their turn? Rules adjudications that change assumptions are probably a major disruptor to plans, but still another 6 seconds or so should be workable most of the time if they are familiar with what their character can do. You can help by telling them all the info they can Perceive/Know as early as possible, i.e. before Init is rolled. Also: players are usually the problem here, right? There's no real reason they should take longer than the GM to decide actions, so challenge them to keep up with your own pace as target.
3) Limited character discussion/talking in combat rounds. I would say one brief sentence per round is good rule of thumb, or maybe two words or ultra-brief phrases taken at different points in round. If you aren't sure it's critical to communicate at a given moment, it's often a good idea to "save" your words in case it does become important later in the round. Frustrations of miscommunication and mistakes in action choice should be fodder for role-play, not justification to drag out combat resolution thru metagaming discussion.
4) Character Preparation. Common buffs and conditional modifiers can easily be pre-calculated into relevant stats (Saves, Skills, Attacks, etc). Barbs should always have Rage/No-Rage stats for everything relevant (Attack/Damage/Saves/HP). If using OG Barbarian I track a separate Rage HP pool with either pool working to keep you alive/conscious. I usually leave a line next to attacks, AC/CMD, saves, etc for "conditional" modifiers whether for specific types of CMB/D, favored enemies, etc.
For non-Medium characters who use CMBs, it's useful to derive a "CMB modifier" which is double the CMB Size mod (to counter normal Size mod to Attack and equal normal CMB Size mod), so you can instantly add that to your pre-calculated iterative attack #s when you want to make a CMB with that attack.
5) Facilitate rolls for them. Pre-rolling sets of checks which can be used for Perception and Knowledge checks means you can just tell players what they See/ Realize about a situation instead of wasting time asking everybody to roll and tell you the result. For common checks like Perception, Sense Motive, etc just have a set dedicated for each purpose so you don't need to do any math at all.
Also, it's good to have understanding for when players step away for phone call or bathroom, so you can roll Init for them, or automatically Delay their turn so other PCs/NPCs can act until they get back to the table... As long as less than a full round has passed that usually isn't a big deal and means you don't waste as much time waiting.
6) There are game aids for tracking Initiative or you can easily make your own. Major factor here being that actual Init count doesn't really matter, only the order does. A game aid that easily allows Init order modification (from delays/readies) is good idea. Consolidating Init for multiple enemies or allies can also help, and doesn't need to be all or nothing: instead of 6 enemy inits have 3, with 1 for "BBEG" and 2 groups of 2 minions each.
7) Keep extra bodies under control. Whether Familiars, Companions, Summons, it's all more bodies. When it is allowed into the game, make sure all the other advice is followed to the hilt for the extra bodies involved.
I was a player in a game recently where 7 rounds of combat took nearly 4 hours to resolve. This is not typical for our group by any stretch, but sometimes there's a confluence of events and circumstances that just grinds combat to a halt. Some of these things we had control over, some we didn't, and some we didn't handle well.
1) We're a large group with 6 PC's. Adding PC's has a quadratic, not linear, effect on combat speed.
2) Summoning. That was one of the NPC's tactics. This adds more tokens and things to track. Maybe consider different tactics if combat is already grinding down? (The problem is, more baddies is the easiest way to counter imbalances in action economy, so you need a plan B for that)
3) It was 3-D combat. Anything involving flight is instantly a mess. There's just no good solution for tracking altitude along with position, and virtually all the details of 3-D combat are house rules because PF has so few hard rules and the ones around the Fly skill are complicated. Players have access to Fly around level 5, so you really need to have a solid solution for flight early on to make combat go smoothly. Whether that be memorizing the Fly skill check table, printing it out so it's there for everyone to see, or just house-ruling them out so people can focus on the other dozen things.
4) It was 3-D combat in strong winds, which made #3 even worse. Sometimes the encounter setup is just stacked against you as the GM, designed for ultimate cool (which it was) but at the expense of sanity and manageability. I don't have sure-fire advice for this one. If the module designers are hell-bent on torturing you by layering so many rules on the encounter, you need to digest them into a reference that can be shared with the players. You know what spells they have, so point out the impact on each spell in advance. It takes away some of the "surprise" but in a complicated encounter, surprise is not your friend.
5) The room environment was complicated. This was just piling on the problems of #3 and #4.
6) Everyone had to go to the bathroom at some point.
7) I got two urgent phone calls from my wife
What caused the biggest problems for us were rules around 3 and 4, and the complexities of the environment (#5). We had to ask a lot of questions about what was where and what we could see, even with a map.
If I had it to do over again, as a player, I would have objected less, asked fewer questions. If I were the GM, I would have said "let's make this the rule for now, and fix it permanently later". It's OK to make a temporary rule for an encounter to keep from getting lost in the weeds.
Not much you can do about 6 and 7. You can hold for individual bathroom breaks, but with 7 you have no idea how long you're going to be gone, and you don't know it's coming. We can't pre-announce strategies and tactics, and it's weird to NPC a player that is there. But you might have to do it. The longer the combat runs, though, the more likely it is that 6 and 7 will happen. So tightening up everything else is key.
Grouped initiative speeds things up--every time you switch from an NPC to a PC it's a context switch and the game slows down--but keep in mind that it can be lethal to PC's so play "nice". With group initiave it is easy for all the baddies to surround one PC and swing without them getting a turn in between. Use Hero Points so they have a way out of it mid-turn, or don't do that just because you can.
We are 6, I'm a Lawyer (DM) and we have a player which is also a lawyer. So it's rule debate all night.
I'd love to hear rules lawyering from actual lawyers!
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I do a lot of high level play. Combat can go fast. Do this:
1) Don't debate rules, any question either look at it immediately, make a final call and move on. Period. End of discussion until after the game.
2) once adjucated whether or not a hit happened, skip to the next PC and between future pc switches, take damage totals from previous PC. In other words don't wait for the total.
3) Run multiple PC simultaneously where possible (if fighting different monsters).
4) if down to one combatant, run the entire of party simultaneously between monster initiatives.
5) whenever possible go with memory or a "feeling" on stats if looking it up takes more than a few seconds.
You do that and you can do 20-30 combats every time.
Combats are at their sloggiest with inexperience on all sides of the table. Faster combat is something honed over time, particularly at higher levels. A couple tricks I use for speeding up my play and GMing:
- Roll all attacks in a full attack at once, then read the dice left to right as they landed on the table vs their bonuses. Attacks bonuses are properly recorded in descending bonus total, so this should be very easy.
- When determining what hits, you can shorthand it as a GM by just giving the AC value. If you're not comfortable with that, the player read out attacks from the bottom up to determine what hits. Establishing a floor under which they can ignore the result as a miss will drastically speed up archery, TWF, and natural attack builds. Similarly, as a GM, just ask the player for their AC. Don't cheat the calculations so there's no question of trust.
- Casters should pick 3 options before their turn comes up. Example: "I will either Greater Dispel {target}, Dim Door away from danger, or Telekinetic Charge the fighter into melee." This way, they can look at the situation, pick the best of those options, and resolve their turn. This is the hardest to enforce, but the hardest part of playing a high level caster is selecting the right spell in a time-sensitive situation.
- If a player is planning a dice thunder attack (disintegrate, multiple sneak attack hits, etc.), have them roll the damage and total it before their turn, then resolve the actual action on their turn. Nothing is more frustrating than trying to count 36d6 and losing track because of table talk while you're counting and table talk almost always seems to happen while people are counting up giant dice rolls. Bonus points: have the player roll them before the session, write them down on an index card, and cross them off, in order, during the session. If you're concerned about fudging, check the card before the game.
- Buffs - constantly re-totaling buffs is one of the single biggest time wasters at the table. "Does a 30 hit?" "Did you remember Prayer?" "Sorry, 31?" "What about Haste?" "32?"... This is HIGHLY AVOIDABLE, however, if players use something like a small whiteboard, scrap paper, or a digital character sheet like Hero Lab. Insist that players total their buffs with the relevant bases before rolling any dice. The easiest transition here (and it's still difficult) is to tell your players that you will only accept the first value they give you for any attack (or whatever relevant thing it is). Tell them this before you start a session. As buffs come out, remind them to re-total their bonuses.
Ultimately, there are only 3 big problems at high level: math, weird rules interactions, and decision-making. They're the same problems that exist at lower levels, but with much greater scope. I've listed them in terms of ease of solution. Math can easily be prepared for and adjusted at the table. Rules can be discussed before the session and, let's be honest, it's pretty easy to get someone to talk about the cool new thing their character can do. Decision-making can't be prepared for, but it's typically more of a self-selecting problem: you chose a caster? It's your problem.
I can't recommend digital dice rolling enough, especially at high levels. I know some people love physical dice for the sound and the public display, but digital rollers (or at least, the good ones) let you type in arbitrary dice expressions...much like dicebot here. :) The really nice ones let you create presets for common tasks.
Rolling 15d6 is a lot faster when the work is done for you.
Thank you for all the feedback/advice. There's a lot of great stuff here and I really appreciate it. I will take as much of this as I can into my game.
by far the worst offender is the Wizard, followed by the Bard. For the Medium and the Ranger it's the dice totaling. The Paladin is fine because he tells me what he is doing, how he is doing it and is capable of dice rolling and giving me a total within a reasonable amount of time.
I don't allow Summoner's and I've already told the wizard to avoid summoning things until he can fully understands his character.
I'm able to mostly manager my end through use of Herolab.
Thank you again guys.
H2Os
Oh, and to save dice rolling: don't roll more dice on a Crit, just multiply total.
It flattens the curve out, but average is still the same, so good by my book.
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The main thing is that you need to make the players realize how important it is to pay attention and be ready when it's their turn. They need to have all bonuses calculated, ranges and distances figured out, etc, before their turn and be ready to roll and quickly tabulate the numbers. You , as the DM, need to do the same for the enemy. Also , as others have said, don't debate rules in the middle of combat. Make a quick call and do it differently next time if you find out you are wrong.