So during a game i was about to get charged by the big baddy, if he hits me i'd die, so i thought i'd be cleaver to save my skin. I had a reach advantage over it (long arm and it didn't know, or it didn't care), so i readied to bullrush the baddy when he got into range. I only succeed in bullrushing him (5ft) because he take a penalty from charging.
So now what happens to the charge? Is it wasted because it is interrupted, or does the baddy simply continue it's movement and wreck my day?
I can understand a trip would interrupt a charge because it forces the target to go prone and spend a move standing up (and be locked in place because it was unable to 5ft step after already moving). But how does this work with readied actions and forced movement?
Some easy examples might be a flowing monk readying a reposition with a reach weapon, or a Druid of Gozreh readying a bullrush/drag with a surge (Su) when an enemy comes within 10ft of your allies, or a Undine with hydraulic maneuvers doing the same with a bullrush/disarm/trip with a hydraulic push ?
And how does this work with a EG: longarmed, enlarged Bloodrager readying a grapple ? Does the successful grapple at range put the target adjacent to you and interrupt the charge? Or can the target still attack with 1h attacks? Or might the target simply be held grappled at the distance it provoked?
Any answers?
I assume you choose not to follow the BBG when you bullrushed him.
If he still has enough movement remaining to reach you, he's still met the requirements for a charge. He did nothing but move in a straight line directly toward the closest square he can attack you from.
As to grappling, the rules say "If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)." So you MUST move him adjacent. Again, the BBG has met the requirements for the charge.
A trip or disarm is your best option. One stops him before he can get to you and the other removes his weapon, assuming he has a weapon to remove, and no natural attacks to use in place of the weapon.
To your first question, it only pushes him back. It doesn't disrupt his movement any more than simply adjusting his position, and it's not done in a way to disqualify his ability to charge, so yes, you'd still get rekt (yes, I know it's spelled wrong, but I spell it this way to make a point).
Trip works. Unfortunately, if he's more than 1 size category bigger than you, you just can't trip him. If he has more than 2 legs, he also gets CMD bonuses to avoid being tripped. If he's flying, you just can't trip him at all. Because of these reasons, Trip is a stupid idea 90% of the time (because in the higher levels, most every enemy you face is 2+ category sizes bigger than you, and has so many legs you can't even begin to describe it).
Repositioning, if done correctly, would work, if you make it so he's in a square behind you, thus invalidating the requirements needed to charge. This is the big difference between Repositioning and Bull Rushing; a difference, I might add, which would save your life.
As I've said above, Bull Rush doesn't really work. I don't see how Drag could be any different, since all you're doing is moving him with you as a combat maneuver, which doesn't really help invalidate his ability to make his attack against you.
If you grapple him, it simply pulls him next to you, which is what he really wants (as evidenced by the Charge action). If he had a Reach or Two-handed weapon, then he couldn't execute the attack with that weapon (though if he has a one-handed/light weapon without reach, he can certainly still use that to carry out the attack). Even if he can attack, he still suffers penalties to his attack roll, which can help (though not exactly the best solution to prevent the situation entirely)
Another idea would be to ready a Disarm if he is using a manufactured weapon that can be disarmed. Though, in most cases, you're better off creating difficult terrain or hiding behind some sort of cover that makes charging impossible.
Readying to make an attack and taking a 5 foot step away was legal and worked even on someone simply moving in close and meleeing you. Charge should be thwarted too.
Making an attack and taking a 5 foot step away was legal and worked even on someone simply moving in close and meleeing you. Charge should be thwarted too.
I'd rather not open up that can of worms, especially in regards to readied actions and AoOs...
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Readying to make an attack and taking a 5 foot step away was legal and worked even on someone simply moving in close and meleeing you. Charge should be thwarted too.
Not so automatic, different starting conditions can have different results.
About the OP question:
1) reading an action to move away, out of the charge path, when the enemy was 10' away, should have worked. Charges have very stringent rules.
2) With the bull rush vs. charge scenario that you depicted, I would have made a ruling on the fly, as the situation is not covered in the standard rules.
a) the charge action say "You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles)." The successful bull rush seem to hinder the attacker movement.
b) The charger would have to move at least a extra 5' (he will be pushed back at last that much).
c) The charge is somewhat interrupted.
Keeping all the above in mind, ad at the same time not wanting to "rob2 the attacker of all his action, I would say that, if the charger had enough movement, he would reach the target, nbut that the charge was robbed of its momentum, so he would be able to make a single attack (and not pounce or whatever) without the charge bonus to the attack. He would retain the AC penalty.
Other GM could easily rule differently.
Readying to make an attack and taking a 5 foot step away was legal and worked even on someone simply moving in close and meleeing you. Charge should be thwarted too.
Why? If bullrush simply eats some of his movement, then if you 5 ft step, he can simple move a bit further, since your readied is resolves BEFORE his actions completes. So he can just 'charge' after you.
See, if you readied movement, i guess you can simply 'sidestep' the charge by moving out of the way of his straight line, i can understand, but a 5 ft step..most of the time he can simply argue that the charge is angled ever so slightly.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
I would have made a ruling on the fly, as the situation is not covered in the standard rules.
It was a flying BBG (riftdrake). The GM ruled that it interrupted the charge, as would I if i were GM. My reasoning is that forced movement applies to:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).Forced movement interrupts movement and something that pushes you back when you charge sounds like an obstacle in my book. It would interrupt the move action forcing the creature to make another move action to get into range since You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge. and thus be unable to attack. And if the BBG had to move more then 1 move to get to you, we wouldn't have a move action to continue.
IF we rule that he can spend his excess movement from 1 move action, then i'd have it keep the AC penalty, but not get a charge bonus and the ability to pounce. As per your suggestion.
But I'd have no problem with a readied action being used to rob someone of their charge. At low lvs you are simply changing an standard for his attack and at higher lvs you must meet faster scaling DC's to potentially rob a creature of it's pounce. Doesn't seem unbalanced at all.
Repositioning, if done correctly, would work, if you make it so he's in a square behind you, thus invalidating the requirements needed to charge. This is the big difference between Repositioning and Bull Rushing; a difference, I might add, which would save your life.
As I've said above, Bull Rush doesn't really work. I don't see how Drag could be any different, since all you're doing is moving him with you as a combat maneuver, which doesn't really help invalidate his ability to make his attack against you.
Well the drag question was raises because your ALLIES can ready actions to drag the charger out of your path. Invalidating the You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (arguably). Usually i see this interpreted as "you must move in a straight line". But RAW, that doesn't seem to be a requirement. If if get moved to the side ever so slightly (like 10ft) i could still move toward my target (through an alternate path). I can see some tactical options here with patches of difficult terrain, but mostly the BBG could just keep moving if we rule that forced movement isn't disruptive.
The real interesting thing about your reposition suggestion seems to be. ..may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.. and You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.
To me this reads that you can only move and attack the opponent you designate at the BEGINNING of your charge. So lets say anybody else grapples you. your charge gets broken. If somebody else repositions you behind themselves, charge gets broken. If somebody drags you, you *might* keep to continue your charge, but you are going to provoke from the dragger.
And then there is the You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. part. Is this square fixed? or does it change. So lets say i charge (--->) straight
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And i get repositioned(R) 10 ft(r) to the side with a reach weapon, does the square it need to reach change (a), or does it stay the same (C)? (regardless, it's going to provoke and AoO.)
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Hindering movement isn't really properly defined; it can mean that if you're subject to a Slow spell during your action, you can't complete the charge. Unfortunately, RAW would suggest that, even if you are staggered, you can charge, but you just don't have as much movement if you do so. It's a GM call, that's for sure, but if that's the case, then it's not really a rules answer, and more of a last resort.
In my opinion, being pushed back from a PC's charge isn't really an obstacle. An obstacle usually refers to something impeding your path entirely. Although Difficult Terrain is mentioned, I feel that's an exception to the general rule. Truth be told, a lot of people would charge even without the knowledge of something impeding their path. Let's say I decide to charge an enemy Wizard, but he has a Wall of Force up in front of him (and I don't know that, since my fellow PCs failed their Spellcraft check). Would the GM flat-out say "I can't charge," even though my PC's knowledge is that there is nothing in the way? Or, would the GM let me charge, and then stop my progress because of an unseen obstacle, such as a Wall of Force, barred my path? In my opinion, a smart GM would run the latter. A forgiving GM might run the former, but that gives the PCs metagame knowledge that they shouldn't have (and invalidates the surprise benefits of creatures failing Spellcraft checks).
Same concept here. The enemy doesn't know if you're readying to Bull Rush (unless he has some sort of knowledge or mind-reading abilities that tell him that); it could just be a regular attack, it could be a combat maneuver that isn't a Bull Rush. Hell, it could even be a Move Action to waste his charge, and put him into Full Attack positioning. The idea that you're readying something (and even that's not a guarantee) isn't good enough to halt his progress, and if that readied action denies his ability to complete the charge simply due to the results of that action (such as the Trip attempt), then he can't charge. But, you need to prove that a Bull Rush is capable of invalidating the charge from the results of the action; which, in my opinion, wouldn't be good enough, especially if he isn't pushed in a way to invalidate the charge conditions, such as by being pushed to the side (which means it's not a straight line), or pushed far enough to make him lack the movement needed.
Drag from your allies would also work as invalidating the Charge requirements of requiring a straight line. As far as it hindering movement, being staggered doesn't mean you can't charge, it means you don't have as much movement, so there is that aspect to consider.
The designated opponent is you. Unless you can somehow magically transform yourself to not be the opponent in question (perhaps a well-crafted Illusion spell, or even invisibility), the enemy doesn't lose sight of you as an opponent, and you are always designated.
The closest space from which you can attack doesn't mean that the space is fixed. Most of the time it does, if only because most creatures don't ready against a charge like that. But just because you alter your position doesn't mean that there isn't a closest space to attack from. If an event would change which is the closest space without invalidating the other requirements of a charge (for example, readying a move action to move directly backwards from the impending charge), then I don't see a reason why, if point X is where you were, and point Y is where you will be from a readied action, that being adjacent to point Y is still the closest space from which the creature can attack you.
Bullrush would not interrupt a charge unless you made them run out of movement, and you yourself didn't wind up in their face.
Charge technically doesn't have a provision on changing direction, as long as you're moving towards your target: its just that in the stop motion nature of the game, that usually results in a straight line.
If the charger is moving towards you, and you push the charger back away from you, how is the charger still considered to have charged in a straight line? At that point, it's a bit more like a back and forth zigzag.
I don't think he would qualify for completing the charge anymore.
I imagine some might try to argue that the charger can just take the attack a little early (provided he moved at least 10 feet); except that he can't, his action got interrupted by a readied action, and the readied action (and its results) need to be concluded in their entirety before the charger is allowed to resume his turn.
What you do is ready an action for when he attacks you. When this triggers, the charger will start his attack and ends his move. You act before he does. So you attack and take a five foot step away. Then it is his turn, and you are too far away to attack, so he fails.
This was a big discussion some time ago, and is confirmed to work as intended. The charger doesn't get to move again. It works when someone merely walks up to you and attacks, so charging doesn't change anything.
There is no straight line requirement.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).
So, if anything hinders your movement, such as being bull rushed backwards, the charge fails.
There is no straight line requirement.
You must "move directly toward the designated opponent." That generally results in a straight line. If you deviate from that path (such as moving away from the target), you are not moving directly toward your target and are disqualified from the charge benefits.
There is no straight line requirement.You must "move directly toward the designated opponent." That generally results in a straight line.
Generally yes, but that does not create a requirement to move in a straight line since this is obviously one of those exceptions.
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There is no straight line requirement.You must "move directly toward the designated opponent." That generally results in a straight line.Generally yes, but that does not create a requirement to move in a straight line since this is obviously one of those exceptions.
I suppose that Paizo hasn't used "straight line" as some people would read that as "following the grid lines".
There is no straight line requirement.You must "move directly toward the designated opponent." That generally results in a straight line.Generally yes, but that does not create a requirement to move in a straight line since this is obviously one of those exceptions.
I suppose that Paizo hasn't used "straight line" as some people would read that as "following the grid lines".
Some people do that anyway.
I'm with RavingDork on this.
Partway through his charge, he was shoved back. A charge is all about momentum, and you broke that momentum.
It's not like, while being shoved back, the attacker's feet were still running like Fred Flintstone and his speed was maintained.
If the rules poop all over obvious intuition, go with intuition.
If the charger is moving towards you, and you push the charger back away from you, how is the charger still considered to have charged in a straight line? At that point, it's a bit more like a back and forth zigzag.
I don't think he would qualify for completing the charge anymore.
I imagine some might try to argue that the charger can just take the attack a little early (provided he moved at least 10 feet); except that he can't, his action got interrupted by a readied action, and the readied action (and its results) need to be concluded in their entirety before the charger is allowed to resume his turn.
As others have said, the "straight line" clause isn't really there, which means that it's merely an implication, since straight is usually the most direct.
Let's re-examine the Charge restrictions again. From the PRD:
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
So, the restrictions are:
-Must move before you attack.
-Must move 10 (or more) feet, but no higher than double your movement speed directly toward the opponent. Can draw weapon depending on charging distance.
-Line of Sight and a clear path toward the opponent.
-Nothing can hinder your movement (a la difficult terrain or obstacles, such as walls or gaps).
-You must move to the closest space that you can attack the opponent from, which cannot be occupied or blocked.
-If a line of movement passes through squares that prevent movement, reduce movement, or has a creature in any square you pass through, you can't charge.
While a "line" is indirectly brought up, the ideal that it has to be a "straight" line comes from the objective definition of "directly," which is that there can be no variation or side-skirting elsewhere. If it is a subjective definition, then "directly" can allow PCs who can see enemies around a corner to charge said enemies around said corner.
The big contender with Bull Rush would be if it constitutes an enemy not moving directly toward the opponent. I can see the argument for it, but at the same time the intent behind the rule in question is that it refers to voluntary movement. A charger can't normally move backwards or sideways (unless that's the most direct line), but I don't think the rules covered what happens to a charger who is involuntarily shoved, which is ultimately the problem we're running into here.
Then again, I don't think chargers voluntarily trip or disarm themselves either, so...there is that...
I'm with RavingDork on this.
Partway through his charge, he was shoved back. A charge is all about momentum, and you broke that momentum.
It's not like, while being shoved back, the attacker's feet were still running like Fred Flintstone and his speed was maintained.
If the rules poop all over obvious intuition, go with intuition.
If actions were not slotted into discrete order, the person charging would hit an opponent trying to push him back.
You mean it wasn't for when you were charging in non-Euclidean space?There is no straight line requirement.You must "move directly toward the designated opponent." That generally results in a straight line.Generally yes, but that does not create a requirement to move in a straight line since this is obviously one of those exceptions.
I suppose that Paizo hasn't used "straight line" as some people would read that as "following the grid lines".
People trying to argue you cannot charge down a hallway drawn diagonally on the grid.
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If actions were not slotted into discrete order, the person charging would hit an opponent trying to push him back.I'm with RavingDork on this.
Partway through his charge, he was shoved back. A charge is all about momentum, and you broke that momentum.
It's not like, while being shoved back, the attacker's feet were still running like Fred Flintstone and his speed was maintained.
If the rules poop all over obvious intuition, go with intuition.
Not in the OP situation, as he had reach with his bull rush, while the attacker hadn't it.
Not in the OP situation, as he had reach with his bull rush, while the attacker hadn't it.If actions were not slotted into discrete order, the person charging would hit an opponent trying to push him back.I'm with RavingDork on this.
Partway through his charge, he was shoved back. A charge is all about momentum, and you broke that momentum.
It's not like, while being shoved back, the attacker's feet were still running like Fred Flintstone and his speed was maintained.
If the rules poop all over obvious intuition, go with intuition.
Reflecting that location is also broken into discrete units.
You cannot apply real world intuition on one aspect of a scenario without applying it to the rest. The character,s arms clearly come close enough to be struck by the assailant's weapons, or so intuition would tell us.
Game mechanics, however, function differently. Time is broken into discrete steps, you cannot strike the arms and hands of someone pushing you if their body is too far away, and momentum is not broken if the charger is bull rushed as a readied action or AoO, as long as he continues moving directly towards his designated opponent after the maneuver is resolved.
Reflecting that location is also broken into discrete units.
You cannot apply real world intuition on one aspect of a scenario without applying it to the rest. The character,s arms clearly come close enough to be struck by the assailant's weapons, or so intuition would tell us.
Game mechanics, however, function differently. Time is broken into discrete steps, you cannot strike the arms and hands of someone pushing you if their body is too far away, and momentum is not broken if the charger is bull rushed as a readied action or AoO, as long as he continues moving directly towards his designated opponent after the maneuver is resolved.
In terms of intuition, the OP's character had a reach advantage, and that has nothing to do with "discrete units". The opponent charged him, and before the charging foe was able to deliver the blow he was pushed back. The fact that the OP was ready for him meant he had the upper hand, and caught the charging person off-guard.
Try this out in a backyard brawl at full speed, and you'll know I describe a very plausible combat situation.
In game terms, the line of the charge was interrupted. Clean and simple.
Try this out in a backyard brawl at full speed, and you'll know I describe a very plausible combat situation.
An equally plausible explanation, and this happened to me many times, is you wind up getting your hands smacked by the other persons weapon.
Game terms don't put the attacks limbs closer to the person being attacked, even when that is the description given by the effect.
In game terms, you cannot interrupt mid-charge. Readied actions occur prior to the action that triggers them. In the case of a charge, per individual is still charging and may still have the option to move directly towards his opponent. Nothing in Bull Rush, or any other maneuver explicitly stops an ongoing action. (Though tripping a charging opponent would mechanically prevent further movement until a separate action is taken to stand. The need to take a separate action to stand would interrupt the charge for most creatures.)
If you read just past the sentence you're emphasizing, you'll see a problem with your stance.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
See that word "interrupt"? See that conditional clause after?
A charging character whose charge movement is interrupted (such as by a readied bull rush) has failed to meet the conditions for a charge action.By your own logic, readying a spear against a charge provokes a sunder-of-opportunity.