So let's face it, hand crossbows kinda suck the big banana, so my idea would be to make rapid reload (hand crossbow) give the added ability to reload while two weapon fighting with hand crossbows. I'd like your opinions on this tweak or better advice on how to make crossbows better in general.
I'm just trying to think of how reloading two Hand Crossbows (or two firearms) while wielding them would work from a geometric point of view, when I only have two hands (and contrary to what some people around where I grew up might say, I DON'T have a tail, prehensile or otherwise).
I think Hand Crossbows are valued not for their sheer damage output (which is small(*)), but for the greater ease of storing and hiding them. This doesn't explain why they should be Exotic weapons when the other sizes of non-embellished crossbows (not double, repeating, etc.) are Simple weapons. If it were up to me, I would make hand crossbows Simple weapons with a -1 penalty for firing one-handed that goes away if you get Martial proficiency with them. (Note that the Tube Arrow Shooter is an Eastern Martial weapon that is of similar purpose and actually gives you a bonus on Sleight of Hand checks to conceal it, unlike the Hand Crossbow, and has a somewhat longer range increment, but on the other hand takes longer to reload, like a Heavy Crossbow, while having no better damage than a Hand Crossbow.)
(*)Unless you have something like Warpriest's Sacred Weapon or Advanced Weapon Training (Focused Weapon) boosting it -- then at higher levels it actually becomes pretty good.
I'm just trying to think of how reloading two Hand Crossbows (or two firearms) while wielding them would work from a geometric point of view, when I only have two hands (and contrary to what some people around where I grew up might say, I DON'T have a tail, prehensile or otherwise).
I think Hand Crossbows are valued not for their sheer damage output (which is small(*)), but for the greater ease of storing and hiding them. This doesn't explain why they should be Exotic weapons when the other sizes of non-embellished crossbows (not double, repeating, etc.) are Simple weapons. If it were up to me, I would make hand crossbows Simple weapons with a -1 penalty for firing one-handed that goes away if you get Martial proficiency with them. (Note that the Tube Arrow Shooter is an Eastern Martial weapon that is of similar purpose and actually gives you a bonus on Sleight of Hand checks to conceal it, unlike the Hand Crossbow, and has a somewhat longer range increment, but on the other hand takes longer to reload, like a Heavy Crossbow, while having no better damage than a Hand Crossbow.)
(*)Unless you have something like Warpriest's Sacred Weapon or Advanced Weapon Training (Focused Weapon) boosting it -- then at higher levels it actually becomes pretty good.
I've heard of people doing ot in. DnD 3.5 with their teeth, I'm not sure How the rules differ but it seems sensable considering some of my players can push a 1 ton wagon
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So let's face it, hand crossbows kinda suck the big banana,
That's because you're using them wrong. What you're supposed to be using them for is as carriers for poison, or sneak attack. That's why they're built that way... to be concealable.
So let's face it, hand crossbows kinda suck the big banana,That's because you're using them wrong. What you're supposed to be using them for is as carriers for poison, or sneak attack. That's why they're built that way... to be concealable.
that's a goodpioint so in that case perhaps I should home brew a repeating hand crossbow for those that want the kind of dual crossbow playstyle
that's a goodpioint so in that case perhaps I should home brew a repeating hand crossbow for those that want the kind of dual crossbow playstyleSo let's face it, hand crossbows kinda suck the big banana,That's because you're using them wrong. What you're supposed to be using them for is as carriers for poison, or sneak attack. That's why they're built that way... to be concealable.
Repeating Hand Crossbows already exist.
As Exotic Weapons.
And they're drastically more useless than regular Hand Crossbows (which are also Exotic for whatever dumb reason), simply because Repeating Crossbows (any type) can't reload their "cartridges" faster than a Full Round Action, even with Crossbow Mastery or Rapid Reload (which doesn't apply for reloading a crossbow's "cartridge," only a crossbow (which Repeating Crossbows already allow you to "reload" as a Free Action).
Repeating Crossbows also take two hands to constantly fire, so even then, that's pretty dumb.
Interestingly enough, on a short film I worked on, a stuntman was playing a double hand crossbow wielding bounty hunter, and he could in fact reload them without dropping one. He basically did it with his last two fingers. Wasn't the fastest, but I mean just the fact that he could do it is something.
I'd say it took him about 3 seconds per crossbow, so half a round per, not exactly free action territory.
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So let's face it, hand crossbows kinda suck the big banana, so my idea would be to make rapid reload (hand crossbow) give the added ability to reload while two weapon fighting with hand crossbows.
The problem with dual wielding hand crossbows is that you (usually) don't have any hands left to perform the reloading.
Easiest way to solve this is the Shadowshooting magic weapon special ability.
Interestingly enough, on a short film I worked on, a stuntman was playing a double hand crossbow wielding bounty hunter, and he could in fact reload them without dropping one. He basically did it with his last two fingers. Wasn't the fastest, but I mean just the fact that he could do it is something.
I'd say it took him about 3 seconds per crossbow, so half a round per, not exactly free action territory.
Yeah, but he probably wasn't higher than 5th level. ;D
I shot a crossbow. Once.
Turned out to be a cricket.
And I missed.
Right this whole post is about allowing rapid reload to let you reload while fual weilding crossbows
Too bad Rapid Reload was never written to accomplish that sort of goal. It was written for the sole purpose of reducing the action time needed to reload a specific crossbow by 1 step.
That's it.
Extending it to do more than exactly that is houseruling, which, unless you're the GM, isn't gonna fly.
Even if you are the GM, the balance purposes behind allowing that is ridiculous to say the least. I'd rather lock it behind Crossbow Mastery, since it makes more sense that a Master Crossbowman can reload without requiring hands compared to a novice, and gives that feat better value for those who already reload as a Free Action.
Sounds like a decent idea to try. Given the overall weakness of the hand crossbow, I doubt this will make anyone flock to them.
If you're the DM, give it a try and see if you like the result. Some people will oppose any change, but you know your group better than any random poster on here.
I am the dm, also someone said there was a repeating hand crossbow but I see none in pathfinder at all so a link would be appreciated
Ultimate Equipment on the PRD lists a Repeating Hand Crossbow as a Ranged Exotic Weapon.
It's an expensive-as-all-hell 800 gold monstrosity. It's cheaper to get Masterwork weapons than that, which is just ridiculous for how crappy it is.