If a witch uses evil eye hex and targets saving throws does it affect the saving throw to resist the evil eye hex? Since a successful saving throw reduces the duration to 1 round instead of negating it, it would seem logical that the penalty to saving throw would apply to the will save to resist the evil eye hex. I could also see the argument for saying that the saving throw to resist the hex comes before it affects the target.
How do other GM’s handle this in their campaigns?
It doesn't.
Every effect you can attempt takes place after rolling the saving throw. It's not different from any other spell.
The saving throw for Bestow Curse is clear, because it is will negates. If the saving throw is made the character is not cursed. In the case of evil eye the saving throw reduces the duration to 1 round meaning the character is affected by the hex even if you make the saving throw.
I looked over the rules for saving throw and I could not find anything stating when the saving throw takes place. It seems to me that the effect has to be in place before you get a saving throw. There are a lot of abilities that allow a character to affect the result of a saving throw that simply do not make sense, or work if the effect does not happens first. For example evasion allows you to take no damage from a spell with a successful save. I have always seen evasion as the ability to find cover from the spell. It seems pretty obvious that the fireball is in existence before you dodge it. The swashbuckler’s charmed life requires you to use an immediate action, without the effect being in existence how do you react to it?
You always make the saving throws before the effects take place, it doesn't matter if it's will, reflexes or fortitude, it doesn't matter if the creature is only affected if it fails or it has a lesser effect if it passes. The mechanics on making saves are always the same: first you roll, then the effect takes place.
The swashbuckler uses his charmed life bonus before the roll is made, so it doesn't affect anything that it's being said.
Not that I am disagreeing, but do where are you finding that? I posted this in the rules section because I wanted to see if there were any rules I missed that would clarify the situation. The saving throw for negative level take place after the effect so the situation is not quite as clear as it seems.
Not that I am disagreeing, but do where are you finding that? I posted this in the rules section because I wanted to see if there were any rules I missed that would clarify the situation. The saving throw for negative level take place after the effect so the situation is not quite as clear as it seems.
It is as clear as it seems. Negative levels say you get a save after twenty-four hours, but Evil Eye has no such text. With no text to suggest when the saving throw occurs, it happens before the effect takes place.
I understand and agree with what people are saying, but I am still looking for some rule or FAQ to address the situation. If there is none I will simply rule on it in my game. I try to avoid doing that as much as possible. Below is the section on saving throw from the reference document, and nowhere does state when a saving throw takes place.
Saving Throw
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
Partial: The spell has an effect on its subject. A successful saving throw means that some lesser effect occurs.
Half: The spell deals damage, and a successful saving throw halves the damage taken (round down).
None: No saving throw is allowed.
Disbelief: A successful save lets the subject ignore the spell's effect.
(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level.
(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.
I'm sorry but it makes no sense to think that the penalty would apply to saving throw to resist the thing applying the penalty.
Does not the saving penalty from negative levels affect the saving throw to remove them?
There's not much point in finding where the really basic stuff about the game is spelled out. You could ask where it says that damage subtracts from hitpoints, but we all know it does. Just because the hit points section only refers to "wounds" and the damage section doesn't mention "hit points" at all doesn't mean the obvious way everybody plays should be considered a house rule.
Does not the saving penalty from negative levels affect the saving throw to remove them?
Does not the text for Energy Drain explicitly say that the saves to remove the negative levels are made 24 hours later? It's not a valid example if it only does something unusual because the text specifically says to do something unusual. That would be like using a sap as an example to say that crossbows always do nonlethal damage.
Are you ruling the effect occur before the saving throw? It can make some interestingconsequences.
If a PJ is hit by a damaging spell who allows a relfex save, are you going to make him roll with the penalties of being unconscious (helpless thus Dex 0) just because the damage can cause this condition? (assuming the damage rolled is enough to knock him out, of course).
Something similar can happen with spells that cause them being shaken, or negative levels or whatever affect can affet the dice roll. If the effect happens before the roll the penalty is going to be applied or handwaived?
And if the player rolls enough to pass without the penlaty, but fail with it? If the effect is previous to the roll, wich of the two effects are you going to apply? Because the effect you decide is the effect that's going to happen.
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There's also this from the Magic section of the CRB:
The Spell's Result
Once you know which creatures (or objects or areas) are affected, and whether those creatures have made successful saving throws (if any were allowed), you can apply whatever results a spell entails.
Targeting -> Saving Throws -> Apply Effects
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There are also spells that specifically state that creatures get an X penalty or a Y bonus if certain conditions of the spell are made. One example is Hideous Laughter, where a creature gets a +4 bonus to the saving throw of the spell because they aren't of the same type (and subtype) as the caster.
There is no text in Evil Eye that specifically states that the hex applies its penalty to the enemy's saving throw for that hex, so there's no reason to apply a penalty, because you have no text saying a penalty applies until after the hex is applied.
I don't think the penalty from an Evil Eye attempt would apply to the saving throw for that same Evil Eye attempt. However, if you applied your Evil Eye via Hex Strike and used Cornugon Smash or Enforcer on the unarmed strike I'd probably allow the -2 penalty for the enemy being shaken to apply to the saving throw for Evil Eye. It might be tough to say if you need to take the free action to demoralize and the swift action to hex in a certain order or whether they happen at the same time though, so I'd guess there could likely be some table variation.
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There's also this from the Magic section of the CRB:
Targeting -> Saving Throws -> Apply EffectsThe Spell's Result
Once you know which creatures (or objects or areas) are affected, and whether those creatures have made successful saving throws (if any were allowed), you can apply whatever results a spell entails.
Thank you that is exactly what I was looking for.
AS GM I can of course simply rule however I want, but If I can find it in the rules it is easier for the players to accept.
Does not the saving penalty from negative levels affect the saving throw to remove them?
Yes, but you already have the negative levels when you try to remove them.
When you make the saving throw against the hex, it's to see whether or not it affects you.
If it's not yet affecting you, it can't apply the penalty.
I really don't see what's so hard to understand here.
A little late to the party. Didn't you see the conceding post?
A little late to the party. Didn't you see the conceding post?
Now I have, but I responded to the response to my previous post before I read all the way down.
I think the main issue here was the OP wasn't aware that saving throws always occur before the effect.