Pounce, Grab and Rake specifically as it relates to Animal Companion (Cat, Big)

[RigaMortus]

I know there are a lot of threads on Rake, I did do a search beforehand, but there are some questions I have that I don't see answers for, and a lot of the answers to how Pounce/Grab/Rake work don't seem to have a consensus. So looking for some advice, mostly on Rake...

I know Animal Companions and the actual animal from the Bestiary are often different from one another, different states, etc. So I am specifically asking about the "Cat, Big" animal companion (not the Tiger out of the Bestiary and no Eidilons)...

On the "Cat, Big" stat block entry, it lists the special attack of Rake as "Rake (1d6)". Yet when you look up the Rake ability the example for the format is "rake (2 claws +8, 1d4+2)"...

1) Is Rake a rolled attack or just automatic bonus damage?
2) Do I add bonus strength damage to the 1d6?
3) Do I get 2 Rake attacks or just 1? It only has it listed once, but a "Cat, Big" would have 2 hind claws.
4) If my claw damage increases (such as from Improved Natural Attack) does the Rake damage also increase to match the Claw damage?

How I believe Pounce/Grab/Rake interact (correct me where I might be wrong):

Cat, Big Pounces and gets full attack.
Cat, Big rolls for Bite, Claw, Claw (in whatever order)
If any attack hits, you get a free Grapple attempt via Grab.
If you successfully Grapple off the Pounce/Grab you WOULD get Rake because of Pounce. Normally you'd need to already start the turn Grappled, but Pounce overrides this.

If you Pounce, do you get all of your attacks even if you successfully Grapple (Grab) with the first attack? It seems like you would from what I have read.

[andreww]

Rakes on a pounce are not dependant on successfully grappling. Even if you don't grab you still get to rake when you pounce.

Pounce Universal Monster Ability, it has no reference to grappling. Many things that pounce don't have any sort of grapple ability.

[Chess Pwn]

rakes are just normal natural attacks that can only be used special times.
So just like it says claw 1d6 rake makes an attack roll, and add your str to damage.

[Ascalaphus]

The idea behind rake is basically that this creature normally needs two legs to stand on. So normally it can attack you with only it's foreclaws. But if it's holding onto you with it's foreclaws (grab) or if it's leaping onto you with all its paws (pounce) then it can also attack with the hindclaws.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

So you can do the rake attack on the pounce, but only if the grabs go off? I thought you'd have to wait until the turn after.

Turns out I needed this thread too lol.

[BigNorseWolf]

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

So you can do the rake attack on the pounce, but only if the grabs go off? I thought you'd have to wait until the turn after.

Turns out I needed this thread too lol.

Attack modes:

Pounce: claw claw bite rake rake.

Regular attack: claw claw bite

Start round with gazelle in mouth: Maintain grapple as a standard action (probably to do bite damage), rake rake. Technically you don't even need to maintain the grapple to rake you just need to start the round that way.

Uber cheese, probably not the intent: Free action release, you started the round with the creature in a grapple, bite claw claw rake rake and hopefully regrab the creature on a bite.

[Belafon]

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

So you can do the rake attack on the pounce, but only if the grabs go off? I thought you'd have to wait until the turn after.

Turns out I needed this thread too lol.

The conditions for getting to make rake attacks are if EITHER of the following two conditions are met. There are no other requirements.

1. You pounced this round (as stated in the Pounce Universal Monster Rule) -or-
2. You started the turn with the target grappled (as stated in the Rake Universal Monster Rule)

Normally rake is only available when you started the turn grappling the target. Pounce is a special case that overrides that restriction.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

Amazing

[dragonhunterq]

People don't love big cats just because they are cute and purr-ey.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

I'd always thought they needed to be grappled to get rake lol

[Ascalaphus]

Think of a cat jumping at your face with all claws at once, or a velociraptor jumping up and landing with it's toe-claws slashing open your belly. That's pounce-rake. No grapple involved, but the charge probably ends in a little jump.

[DM Livgin]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Attack modes:

Pounce: claw claw bite rake rake.

Regular attack: claw claw bite

Start round with gazelle in mouth: Maintain grapple as a standard action (probably to do bite damage), rake rake. Technically you don't even need to maintain the grapple to rake you just need to start the round that way.

Uber cheese, probably not the intent: Free action release, you started the round with the creature in a grapple, bite claw claw rake rake and hopefully regrab the creature on a bite.

Corrected Cheese: Start round Grappled with gazelle. rake, rake, free action drop now dead gazelle. Pounce new gazelle; bite, claw, claw, rake, rake.

aside::

Did the question of when in your turn a caster chooses to concentrate to maintain a concentration duration spell ever get answered? The can he move and then decide whether to concentrate or not questions. If it is answered it would shine some light on how sharp the above cheese is.

[BigNorseWolf]

DM Livgin wrote:

Corrected Cheese: Start round Grappled with gazelle. rake, rake, free action drop now dead gazelle. Pounce new gazelle; bite, claw, claw, rake, rake.

** spoiler omitted **

Doesn't work.

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

The rake attacks are extra natural attacks. You can't natural attack natural attack and then charge. Charge is still a full round action to start. Charge can turn on rake rake but rake rake doesn't turn on the ability to charge.

[DM Livgin]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Trying to pinpoint the disconnect.

I understand the rake attacks as two free actions that you gain under certain circumstances (starting the turn grappling, pouncing). Being free actions, I think they can be used at any time.

If the rakes are just bonus natural attacks, it makes sense that you cant natural attack, natural attack, charge. But if they are just bonus natural attacks, it doesn't make sense to be able to standard action maintain a grapple and then rake, rake.

As per Aumann's Agreement Theorem, if we can find out why we disagree we won't disagree any more.

[ShieldLawrence]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

DM Livgin wrote:

Corrected Cheese: Start round Grappled with gazelle. rake, rake, free action drop now dead gazelle. Pounce new gazelle; bite, claw, claw, rake, rake.

** spoiler omitted **

Doesn't work.

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

The rake attacks are extra natural attacks. You can't natural attack natural attack and then charge. Charge is still a full round action to start. Charge can turn on rake rake but rake rake doesn't turn on the ability to charge.

By that logic you wouldn't be able to maintain the grapple either, since that can't be done during the full attack you started to rake with.

The rake attacks are made in addition to the options available to all grapplers; releasing a grapple is one of those options.

The two free attacks granted by rake make the most sense as free actions (although technically they aren't an action type). You'd be able to take those two free actions before starting a charge, before starting a full attack, before starting a grapple to maintain check, before full withdrawing, etc.

[BigNorseWolf]

ShieldLawrence wrote:

The two free attacks granted by rake make the most sense as free actions (although technically they aren't an action type). You'd be able to take those two free actions before starting a charge, before starting a full attack, before starting a grapple to maintain check, before full withdrawing, etc.

No, they make the most sense as their own individual exception, which lets you make extra (free) attacks when you maintain a grapple, which is what the rules say they are.

[ShieldLawrence]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

ShieldLawrence wrote:

The two free attacks granted by rake make the most sense as free actions (although technically they aren't an action type). You'd be able to take those two free actions before starting a charge, before starting a full attack, before starting a grapple to maintain check, before full withdrawing, etc.

No, they make the most sense as their own individual exception, which lets you make extra (free) attacks when you maintain a grapple, which is what the rules say they are.

I disagree. And the rules don't say "when you maintain a grapple" just that they can be taken against a grappled foe and that they are free attacks.

[Tyrant Lizard King]

"...under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe."

At best, you could view the emphasis above as indication on Maintaining a grapple. Yes, it would have to start already grappled to do so but the emphasis is because it does not say "when grappling".
That's how I would view it to prevent the cheese of 2 free claw attacks, release grapple(free), then full attack action with 2 possible free grapple checks to grapple again.

"when it grapples", to me, indicates an action... maintaining a grapple.

Unless you disagree with that indication(super cheesy), Rake applies here...
Charge(with Pounce): claw, claw, bite, claw(Rake), claw(Rake)
Grapple: Maintain(pin, move, damage), claw(Rake), claw(Rake)