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The way I see it, Outsiders (specifically with Alignment Subtypes) are very much hard wired to a specific alignment. For multiple reasons. Firstly, they are literally created by the physical and spiritual essence of that alignment.
Secondly, because of the very nature of their existence, for instance a Devil in the LE Plane(s) is "rewarded" for acting, thinking, behaving, and reacting in LE ways. That is how they remain strong and healthy, somewhat similar to eating and breathing for mortals, but also because that is how they achieve social and political power, advance (and evolve). They are also "punished" for acting (significantly) against their alignment/nature. Both in the sense that they can lose popularity/strength/authority, but also because the Plane itself will literally weaken them if they fall away from it's goals and realities of existence, (taking negative levels or having their abilities impeded by the Plane itself).
They can do things that are Chaotic or are Good. They can choose to, can be forced to, and can do so inadvertently. However, what they can not do, or at least can not normally do, is to do these things significantly enough to change their Alignment, except in very extraordinary circumstances. Nor do they want to, (again normally).
That's my take on it. Fey and Undead are in similar boats, but slightly different. All of them have free will, but aspects of their nature, their instincts, drives, needs, and various aspects of their existence make acting against the pertinent Alignment very undesirable, difficult, or troublesome.
A little more on topic, I do agree, that Infernal Healing is very problematic. It's too good, and too available for what little cost it has, and basically completely bypasses the very minor setting-based limitation to "balance" it, which is basically non-existent in PFS.
Either enforce the risk of tampering with evil/darkness so that it's actually a risk, or significantly reduce it's availability, for the good of Organized Play overall.
Material plane is special in how it "insulates" aligned energy, making it so that outsiders think more freely while inside of it!
Ok that was just crackpot speculation.
Material plane is special in how it "insulates" aligned energy, making it so that outsiders think more freely while inside of it!
Ok that was just crackpot speculation.
Well, considering that mortals can change their alignment, aligned energy can either change form though some process into a different kind of aligned energy, or be replaced somehow with a different kind of aligned energy.
So it's conceivable that a Devil would need to be in an environment that contains some "good energy" if they wanted to become non-evil. Which is roughly analogous to saying a Devil needs to be exposed to ideas they are unlikely to find in Hell if they were to change alignment.
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Material plane is special in how it "insulates" aligned energy, making it so that outsiders think more freely while inside of it!
Ok that was just crackpot speculation.
Well, considering that mortals can change their alignment, aligned energy can either change form though some process into a different kind of aligned energy, or be replaced somehow with a different kind of aligned energy.
So it's conceivable that a Devil would need to be in an environment that contains some "good energy" if they wanted to become non-evil. Which is roughly analogous to saying a Devil needs to be exposed to ideas they are unlikely to find in Hell if they were to change alignment.
This is touched upon in James Sutter's Redemption Engine. Heaven has a sort of heavily guarded halfway-house area for Fiends in the process of redemption and transformation into non-fiend.
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@Lorewalker
If you say so.
You can be patronizing if you like. But words have definitions and those definitions are fact. Sure, english likes having multiple definitions share the same word. Yet in this case you will find that none of those definitions fit into the meaning that you suggest, but do fit into the meaning you declared as a misinterpretation.
"Alignment is reactionary and not the cause of actions and decisions. UNLESS YOU ARE A NON-NATIVE OUTSIDER, in which case it's reversed."
reactionary... of, relating to, or characterized by reaction.
reaction... action in response to some influence.
not... used in understatements to suggest that the opposite of a
following word or phrase is true.
cause... a person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition.
unless... except if
reversed... make (something) the opposite of what it was.
Can anyone else find a way for those two sentences to say that a non-native outsider's alignment is not the cause of their actions and decisions?
This is touched upon in James Sutter's Redemption Engine. Heaven has a sort of heavily guarded halfway-house area for Fiends in the process of redemption and transformation into non-fiend.
The question this leaves is why, in game, some strongly aligned outsiders would decide to change or make decisions opposed to their inborn alignment. This sort of implies that there is some level of moral reasoning that supersedes alignment. In game-mechanical terms, this happens whenever a particular outsider is piloted by a GM, player, or writer that wants them to act contrary to their nature, but I'm not sure if there's a diegetic metaphysical explanation.
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@Lorewalker,
My apologies for being patronizing, I was trying to be succinct in stating that while I disagree with you and what I see is a misinterpretation I was also respecting your request to drop the argument.
Can anyone else find a way for those two sentences to say that a non-native outsider's alignment is not the cause of their actions and decisions?
I didn't say it didn't. I also don't see where it says they can't act outside their alignment.
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@Lorewalker,
My apologies for being patronizing, I was trying to be succinct in stating that while I disagree with you and what I see is a misinterpretation I was also respecting your request to drop the argument.
Can anyone else find a way for those two sentences to say that a non-native outsider's alignment is not the cause of their actions and decisions?I didn't say it didn't. I also don't see where it says they can't act outside their alignment.
Then call this my last word on the subject.
It does say they can't act outside of their alignment, definitely if not explicitly. Because actions are the cause of alignment, for humanoids(and others). If the reverse were true then alignment is the cause of actions, as his opinion states is true for non-native outsiders. In other words, their alignment sets their actions. For them to have different actions... they must be have a different alignment. Just as a humanoid must have different actions to have a different alignment.
Also, JJ's statement would be meaningless if no new information is introduced. If a non-native outsider has as much freedom as a humanoid... then the information would not be worth the emphasis he put on it by capitalizing the difference.
(Again, I reiterate that none of this has an effect on the rules of the game as it was all opinion)
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This is touched upon in James Sutter's Redemption Engine. Heaven has a sort of heavily guarded halfway-house area for Fiends in the process of redemption and transformation into non-fiend.Material plane is special in how it "insulates" aligned energy, making it so that outsiders think more freely while inside of it!
Ok that was just crackpot speculation.
Well, considering that mortals can change their alignment, aligned energy can either change form though some process into a different kind of aligned energy, or be replaced somehow with a different kind of aligned energy.
So it's conceivable that a Devil would need to be in an environment that contains some "good energy" if they wanted to become non-evil. Which is roughly analogous to saying a Devil needs to be exposed to ideas they are unlikely to find in Hell if they were to change alignment.
I smell a sit-com!
But if the alignment of, say, a Balor determines its actions, why would it ever seek redemption? The "halfway house" in Heaven would be useless.
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But if the alignment of, say, a Balor determines its actions, why would it ever seek redemption? The "halfway house" in Heaven would be useless.
Well wasn't the succubus everyone uses as an exception to the rule exposed to pure unadulterated desna or something like that?
Deific contact seems reasonable.
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But if the alignment of, say, a Balor determines its actions, why would it ever seek redemption? The "halfway house" in Heaven would be useless.
something really really weird happened.