Statistically, slumber is the nastiest of the two, but misfortune has a very potent effect if it sticks. You could get slumber first, then get misfortune down the line.
Slumber is more powerful for sure, and its a really brilliant way to be able to do something at low levels when you don't have as many spells as you would like.
I'd take both but Misfortune later, when you're more interested in sticking other spells or more interesting effects at higher levels when spells aren't so sparse.
Oh and misfortune works on the undead I think, which is handy for Witches.
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I'd take both but Misfortune later, when you're more interested in sticking other spells or more interesting effects at higher levels when spells aren't so sparse.
I said "I'll take misfortune later".
Then I said "Misfortune is great and I'm definitely taking it, but this level I had this other interesting option"I'm level 12 and I don't have misfortune. I've always found something more interesting or that my party needed most.
But, damn, I still think Misfortune is good.
I'm definitely taking it later.
Someday.
Slumber is a great hex but I advice you not going too far with it. I love having another options aside slumber because it's not too party friendly. If you can put some enemies to sleep and still let your party members have their fun it's great. If you use it to avoid an encounter anybody wants to do anyway it's still great. But be aware what your party wants to do. That you can finish most encounters with slumber doesn't mean you should. Make sure to have more options that just relying on slumber hex and you will really enjoy playing a Witch (at least I am). Spam slumber and you'll end bored and with a frustrated party.
Also, an intelligent GM will know how to deal with your slumber hex so it is still useful in important fights but doesn't solve everything.
In the game I'm playing my witch I've found some enemies who knew my character enough to know her strategies, so they trained their animal companions to stay near and spend an action in awakening them if they would fall asleep. Also, flying enemies awake when they hit the ground. So I can gain some action advantage making my enemies lose their turn with Slumber hex, but it's not an "I win" button.
It depends on your needs. What lvl is your character at? Are you talking about hexes, feats, a bit of everything?
I said "I'll take misfortune later".
Then I said "Misfortune is great and I'm definitely taking it, but this level I had this other interesting option"
I'm level 12 and I don't have misfortune. I've always found something more interesting or that my party needed most.
But, damn, I still think Misfortune is good.
I'm definitely taking it later.
Someday.
Slippery slope fallacy.
At early levels Witches don't have enough spells for long working days, misfortune just isn't as impactful as Slumber, taking slumber early doesn't mean never taking Misfortune.
In my opinion standard Hex selection looks like
1)Slumber
2)Evil Eye or Misfortune
4)Cackle if you took Evil Eye, Evil Eye if you didn't
6)Misfortune if you haven't already or Cackle.
If you wanna go the buffing route Fortune can take the place of Evil eye or Misfortune. If you're doing something different you're doing something different but since we don't know what zainale is doing I can only give standard advice.
Slumber is a great hex but I advice you not going too far with it. I love having another options aside slumber because it's not too party friendly.
unless of course your party doesn't mind winning encounters any other way besides HP damage, why is a Cavalier or a pouncing bard party friendly for one shotting an enemy but a slumber witch isn't? they both did the same thing, only the slumber witch lets the fighter guy do a Coup de Grace.
If you can put some enemies to sleep and still let your party members have their fun it's great. If you use it to avoid an encounter anybody wants to do anyway it's still great. But be aware what your party wants to do.
the way you're describing it it sounds like the way people use the hex is the problem, not the hex.
That you can finish most encounters with slumber doesn't mean you should. Make sure to have more options that just relying on slumber hex and you will really enjoy playing a Witch (at least I am). Spam slumber and you'll end bored and with a frustrated party.
At level one how many options can you realistically have?
1 hex and a paltry amount of spells per day, forgive me but I'd rather have a hex that can kill things than one that can be an inconvenience for one round. Which is exactly why I said take slumber early and misfortune when you have more spells to do fun things with.
Of course you can burn feats to get more hexes but the question is either or, not how do I get both at the same time.
Also, an intelligent GM will know how to deal with your slumber hex so it is still useful in important fights but doesn't solve everything.
you can take this sentence remove slumber hex, insert any other ability in the game and its still true.
In the game I'm playing my witch I've found some enemies who knew my character enough to know her strategies, so they trained their animal companions to stay near and spend an action in awakening them if they would fall asleep. Also, flying enemies awake when they hit the ground. So I can gain some action advantage making my enemies lose their turn with Slumber hex, but it's not an "I win" button.
Who said it was an I win button?
@Zainale
To answer you question we need to know what level you are. I'd recommend getting Retribution as your first major hex, since it gives you a way to deal with undead and other mindless enemies.
The problem is that once you have a save-or-die ability on the table, save-or-something-less-than-die becomes somewhat pointless, except as backup. Anything less than "or die" is a less effective choice in combat, every round unless you're up against something immune.
Really, it usually comes down to "do I use evil eye first in order to debuff saves so slumber will work, or do I just go for it round 1?"
1)Slumber
2)Evil Eye or Misfortune
4)Cackle if you took Evil Eye, Evil Eye if you didn't
6)Misfortune if you haven't already or Cackle.If you wanna go the buffing route Fortune can take the place of Evil eye or Misfortune. If you're doing something different you're doing something different but since we don't know what zainale is doing I can only give standard advice.
I went for Fortune instead of Misfortune but I think any pf both options are great. I just haven't picked misfortune beccause it keeps avoiding me for some reason (not that I want to attract misfortune anyway ;-P)
unless of course your party doesn't mind winning encounters any other way besides HP damage, why is a Cavalier or a pouncing bard party friendly for one shotting an enemy but a slumber witch isn't? they both did the same thing, only the slumber witch lets the fighter guy do a Coup de Grace.
Actually, I'm against a single character finishing most encounters without involving the rest of the party, no matter which way they do it. I think doing it a few times is cool, having the capacity to do so is cool, but doing too much times makes the other players feel unconfortable.
The way you're describing it it sounds like the way people use the hex is the problem, not the hex.
You're right. That's exactly what I think. Actually my witch has Slumber hex and a few feats to buff it. I really like slumber hex. I just don't like to abuse it, but I want it to be reliable when I decide to use it. I don't think there's anything wrong about picking the slumber hex. Just use it wisely. But, as you said, it applies to everything in the game. There are just some things that can be abused more easily than others.
At level one how many options can you realistically have?
1 hex and a paltry amount of spells per day, forgive me but I'd rather have a hex that can kill things than one that can be an inconvenience for one round. Which is exactly why I said take slumber early and misfortune when you have more spells to do fun things with.
Of course you can burn feats to get more hexes but the question is either or, not how do I get both at the same time.
Sounds like you think that I'm discouraging Zainale to pick that hex. Look, I completely aggree with you. I'm simply trying to give some advice, but never discouraging Zainale to take it.
you can take this sentence remove slumber hex, insert any other ability in the game and its still true.
Of course, but Slumber Hex, in my experience, is the kind of ability that often scares the hell out of unexperienced GMs. Anyway, I've met a GM who was scared of Enlarge Person as he didn't know how to deal with a character with reach... So I will have to aggree that anything can be an issue for an unexperienced GM.
Who said it was an I win button?
Nobody did, but I think it can be if the GM doesn't know how to deal with it. Or a complete waste of time, of course, if the GM starts giving you only immune enemies.
I might be painting the worse case scenario, but I like to be cautious. That's why I try not to put all my options in an only strategy.My main advice here is: go for it but don't become too dependant of it.
@Kileanna seems like we agree then.
The problem is that once you have a save-or-die ability on the table, save-or-something-less-than-die becomes somewhat pointless, except as backup. Anything less than "or die" is a less effective choice in combat, every round unless you're up against something immune.
Unless of course there is more than one enemy who can of course wake the first enemy up, and thereafter said enemy is immune to slumber for 24 hours. Why DMs don't do this I don't know.
Then there are things immune to sleep or mind effecting effects in general, and of course things you'd rather not be 30ft from.
Really, it usually comes down to "do I use evil eye first in order to debuff saves so slumber will work, or do I just go for it round 1?"
If there are two enemies, use evil eye because the other one should just wake the first one up. Once one is dead, sleep the other.
And the GM shouldn't really only give you one enemy to deal with if a Witch is in your party. Whatever Hex she chooses you win a solo encounter, Misfortune him every round, Evil eye will gimp anything anyway and slumber slumbers people.
I'll go so far as to actively discourage taking Slumber, largely for the sorts of reasons Cavall, Kileanna and Anguish have already mentioned.
The problem I have with Slumber is that, like most 'save-or-die' type effects (though acknowledging its limitations), it can often either trivialize an encounter entirely, or simply fails with no effect. Neither outcome is really all that desirable from a fun standpoint, and as someone who played alongside a witch who used slumber, it wasnt all that much fun for the other players either.
The additional problem is that unlike most 'save-or-die' spells, Slumber can be spammed, which often means it will become a go-to ability for a witch who takes it, rather than something that gets pulled out more rarely. That acts to compound the problem, and realistically, most players will find it hard not to use a powerful ability frequently if it is in their arsenal.
While I certainly appreciate Chromatic's remarks about ways to counter it as a DM (and I agree it isn't *necessarily* 'save-or-die'), I still think the overall mechanic isn't all that fun or interesting, and would therefore recommend against it.
Of course, I'm also someone who recommends against taking Dazing Spell metamagic to be combined with things like Magical Lineage or Spell Perfection, for much the same reason -- it can trivialize encounters and suck the fun out of the game for everyone. For me, the best games are ones where everyone can contribute to the success of the party, and so 'save-or-die' mechanics don't really jive for me.
All just my own personal views, of course, and best of luck however you end up proceeding, Zainale!
@zainale
this is your 4th hex then correct? What are the other ones?
The difference is that the Cavalier doesn't have a whole host of other options on how to contribute to a combat encounter let alone other types of encounters.
At level one a Witch has a grand total of 2 first level spells per day.
If it doesn't take Slumber is has exactly 0 options for sustained combat relevance. Sure take evil eye and whilst the fighter is doing 2D6+6 damage with his great sword and ending most encounters round one and the sorcerer is doing 3D4+6 burning hands or 3D6+6 shocking grasp and ending encounters in one turn and the barbarian is doing what the fighter is doing but better the Witch can give your opponent a -2 to hit if they fail a save, gee wiz batman you're right that does sound like much more fun.
Or they could maybe do 1D6 sound damage twice wootwoot.
so yeah buy level 6 the witch has more than one way of doing things and they don't need slumber all the time, but at level 1 they really really didn't.
Not to mention there is nothing stopping the Witch at later levels from laying down buffs on the Barb who is fully within his rights to optimize because his version of optimization has BIG NUMBERS which is apparently to experience par excellence of fun in pathfinder. Then do something she's good at, even though the Witch is of course a fun sucking vampire because she knocked an enemy out instead of mincing them/trampling them to death.
Being a Winter Witch you might consider taking prehensile hair to deliver touch spells+frozen caress and use them as a complement to your main strategy.
Flight hex works great too.
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Prehensile hair would be a decent idea
and a personal fave of mine
Off Topic: Honestly I don't see the use in Combat Casting on a Witch. If you're ever cornered and can't cast, you can use Hexes without provoking. I don't get much value out of it, you're better off getting Gloves of Elvenkind or Spellguard Bracers and saving the feat.
you really think i could get away with out having combat casting, hubarus? you have not seen my bad luck.
I really think you can.
Full disclosure; I am of the belief that a feat should allow you to do something new (or give a big enough boost to allow it to happen, such as Two Weapon Fighting), so grabbing an Extra Hex (or Accursed Hex), taking both Hexes of your choice, grabbing a new one, or even or whatnot would at the very least be more interesting.
Prehensile hair only allows you 1 extra "limb" and I don't think you can pick it more than once. You cannot use weapon attacks with it.
What makes it so interesting is:
-10 ft range to deliver touch spells.
-using intelligence instead of strength to deliver touch spells.
-holding an extra wand or rod.
-headbang.
Taking extra hexes is a solid option. There are a lot of interesting hexes.
48 HP doesn't sound so bad at your level. I am at lvl 12 and I have 72 which seem to be enough for me. I'm playing RoW and I haven't been at serious risk of dying since level 3, just once that I flew over a wall of ice leaving my party behind. I was foolish, so my low HP wasn't even the reason there.
Reign of Winter.
which of the two that are offered would you chose. slumber or misfortune? i have one too many feats and need to shoe horn combat casting into my witch. right?
Slumber hex can be powerful, but if there's more than one target it is only really effective if (unless the group is extremely coordinated*) the GM lets it be effective; A sleeping target can be awoken as a standard action by any of its allies, which is then simply an action trade. This is likely the power level the developers intended when they wrote it.
*If you set up a scenario where the fighter or rogue delays their turn until after yours whenever they are adjacent to or with a 5-ft-step from an enemy, just in case your Slumber works, so they can coup-de-grace it on their turn, then Slumber hex can be devastating... and the GM will get really sick of it, really, really fast. This is likely not the application the developers intended (at least, that is my guess).
Slumber hex can be powerful, but if there's more than one target it is only really effective if (unless the group is extremely coordinated*) the GM lets it be effective; A sleeping target can be awoken as a standard action by any of its allies, which is then simply an action trade. This is likely the power level the developers intended when they wrote it.That's only the case if the target's ally goes immediately after the witch. If it's witch > target > rouser then both of them lose their round, which means two actions for one which is pretty awesome, and it groups them up (seriously a hex that drags two enemies together and dazes them both for one round would be ridiculously good).
And of course, if one of the witch's allies gets to go before the rouser then it can be absolutely devastating.
It really depends where the witch is in Initiative and how often she's using the slumber hex. Among intelligent foes one may well choose to delay or ready an action to deal with it - especially if slumber is going off every round.
You alluded to that latter option in the rest of the post, but you also phrase it as though it's a very niche and abusive scenario the players have to go out of their way to set up, when really it seems like the specific scenario of the target's ally going immediately after the witch seems like the more specific and abnormal of the proposed scenarios (in fact, a witch would probably go out of their way to slumber an enemy closer to them in the initiative order if the enemies are all comparable targets).
And that's the thing. The coup-de-grace rules are an abusive scenario. If they weren't players wouldn't get so up in arms about it being used on them, which in my experience they do both at the table and on these forums most of the time they come up. The issue with CDG isn't the automatic crit (though that is nasty), it's the largely unbeatable Fort-save-or-die (basing the DC off damage is a terrible idea) that follows, and the fact that it expends no resources to do it other than a full-round action.
Throwing around hold person and hold monster present similar issues, but are actually easier to break out of under one's own power (repeated saves and lack of autoscaling DC), and at least represent an actual expenditure of resources on the part of the caster. The slumber hex just has the issue of being a character choice that will always be around, and thus used way more often.
The slumber hex isn't too much of a problem on its own - it's the CDG rules. Without CDG, slumber is a convenient control ability, but not all that abusive. So how slumber plays out at the table depends on how the rest of the party behaves, and how the GM has the monsters react to the sleep effect.
which of the two that are offered would you chose. slumber or misfortune? i have one too many feats and need to shoe horn combat casting into my witch. right?Slumber hex can be powerful, but if there's more than one target it is only really effective if (unless the group is extremely coordinated*) the GM lets it be effective; A sleeping target can be awoken as a standard action by any of its allies, which is then simply an action trade. This is likely the power level the developers intended when they wrote it.
*If you set up a scenario where the fighter or rogue delays their turn until after yours whenever they are adjacent to or with a 5-ft-step from an enemy, just in case your Slumber works, so they can coup-de-grace it on their turn, then Slumber hex can be devastating... and the GM will get really sick of it, really, really fast. This is likely not the application the developers intended (at least, that is my guess).
I have an extremely coordinated group and we have very defined roles for each one. When I use slumber hex it's usually devastating because we have already our group strategies to make it work. But I have to say too that Slumber is not even our key strategy, just another one. It has saved many encounters anyway.
GM hasn't still grow tired from slumber, probably because he deals well with it and we don't rely too much on it.I have to say that I have the best team I've ever had and I love how we work together, roleplaying and mechanics wise.
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I have an extremely coordinated group and we have very defined roles for each one. When I use slumber hex it's usually devastating because we have already our group strategies to make it work. But I have to say too that Slumber is not even our key strategy, just another one. It has saved many encounters anyway.
GM hasn't still grow tired from slumber, probably because he deals well with it and we don't rely too much on it.
I have to say that I have the best team I've ever had and I love how we work together, roleplaying and mechanics wise.
And therein (bolded) lies the key point with me.
Using slumber hex (or other control spells) to divide and conquer? Totally fine! :)
Using the CDG rules to get cheap kills? Once in a while... sure.
Using CDG to get cheap kills as a modus operandi (and I know players who try to do just this)? No thanks.
Using CDG to get cheap kills as a modus operandi and then tableflipping if anything does that to them, ever? The front door is through the living room and on the left, thanks.
For the most part, my experience is that coup de grace isn't fun. It isn't fun for the person it is hitting. It isn't fun for the people sitting around doing nothing. It isn't fun for the GM who may well have spent hours planning for a big setpiece encounter to have it washed down the drain because of a poorly thought through game mechanic. The occasional use of a less-than-fun mechanic isn't really a damper, and when it prevents a TPK (even less fun) it may even be a good thing. But the more frequently it turns up on the table, in my experience, the less fun the game is for all (or almost all) involved.
But thankfully, I don't play PFS and I can just house rule the Fort-save-or-die component away.
A fighter at 6th level with a heavy pick is looking at critical damage of 4d6+48 damage with Str and Power Attack alone, which results in a Fort save DC of 62 to 82, which even CR30 demon lords can't make except on a nat-20. That said, most demon lords are flat out immune to every condition that allows CDG for that reason.
Most devils and demons aren't. Pit fiends included, and despite being CR20 their Will save of +18 isn't quite enough to give them even a 50/50 chance of resisting a slumber hex (which ignores spell resistance) from a buffed up 16th level witch. So even for an APL+4 encounter, it's still possible to turn it into a coin flip: heads-he's-dead scenario, because only a nat-20 resists CDG.
Knocking the pit fiend out for a bit and giving the PCs time to buff up and prepare for the fight of their lives? Absolutely!
Knocking the pit fiend down and then hitting him with an impossible save or die effect from any martial? About as unheroic and anticlimactic as it gets.
And therein (bolded) lies the key point with me.Using slumber hex (or other control spells) to divide and conquer? Totally fine! :)
Using the CDG rules to get cheap kills? Once in a while... sure.
Using CDG to get cheap kills as a modus operandi (and I know players who try to do just this)? No thanks.
Using CDG to get cheap kills as a modus operandi and then tableflipping if anything does that to them, ever? The front door is through the living room and on the left, thanks.For the most part, my experience is that coup de grace isn't fun. It isn't fun for the person it is hitting. It isn't fun for the people sitting around doing nothing. It isn't fun for the GM who may well have spent hours planning for a big setpiece encounter to have it washed down the drain because of a poorly thought through game mechanic. The occasional use of a less-than-fun mechanic isn't really a damper, and when it prevents a TPK (even less fun) it may even be a good thing. But the more frequently it turns up on the table, in my experience, the less fun the game is for all (or almost all) involved.
But thankfully, I don't play PFS and I can just house rule the Fort-save-or-die component away.
A fighter at 6th level with a heavy pick is looking at critical damage of 4d6+48 damage with Str and Power Attack alone, which results in a Fort save DC of 62 to 82, which even CR30 demon lords can't make except on a nat-20. That said, most demon lords are flat out immune to every condition that allows CDG for that reason.
Most devils and demons aren't. Pit fiends included, and despite being CR20 their Will save of +18 isn't quite enough to give them even a 50/50 chance of resisting a slumber hex (which ignores spell resistance) from a buffed up 16th level witch. So even for an APL+4 encounter, it's still possible to turn it into a coin flip: heads-he's-dead scenario, because only a nat-20 resists CDG.Knocking the pit fiend out for a bit and giving the PCs time to buff up and prepare for the fight of their lives? Absolutely!
Knocking the pit fiend down and then hitting him with an impossible save or die effect from any martial? About as unheroic and anticlimactic as it gets.
Right couple issues here
It isn't inherently cheep to use the CDG system I agree that a fighter carrying round a Pick or a Scythe in case the Witch/Cleric/Wizard/Sorc/Shaman/Oracle lands a SoS is slightly cringey. You can't however blame a martial for going for a kill thats there or a witch using an ability simply available to them. However I don't see how exactly a SoS followed by the martial CDGing is inherently more problematic than well I'll make a list.
You described a 50% chance of killing a pit fiend with the help of a Marshal.
Why is that more problematic than a
Pouncing Barb
Vivisectionist Alchemist
Synthesis Summoner
Charging Cavalier
Blaster Sorc/Wizard
Archer (various classes)
That could kill the same creature on their own and if their attack doesn't work first turn it most certainly will second where as the Witch's slumber will not work anymore? Furthering that point, Anything Undead, Any Construct, Any Dragon or anything with some mind effecting immunity would be completely unconcerned with The slumber witch or enchantment specialists in general, but I'm pretty sure that Pouncing barb or Vivisentionist Alchemist wouldn't care.
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...the fact that it expends no resources to do it other than a full-round action.
Agreed. No other resources.
Because we're going to ignore whatever efforts are required to get the target helpless to start with. And the efforts required to get the killer beside the target to be able to full-round-action.
CDG kills creatures who have already lost the fight.
...the fact that it expends no resources to do it other than a full-round action.Agreed. No other resources.
Because we're going to ignore whatever efforts are required to get the target helpless to start with. And the efforts required to get the killer beside the target to be able to full-round-action.
CDG kills creatures who have already lost the fight.
Well, as we're talking hexes: The Slumber hex consumes... nothing. It's an at-will ability usable once per day at each target.
But even looking at other things (which are profoundly less likely to work in many cases), such as hold monster, it lasts a number of rounds and allows a new save each round - it's not an automatic failure condition, and it definitely isn't intended to be a save-or-die effect. Indeed, almost all the actual save-or-die effects were deliberately nerfed to be simply save-or-take-a-bunch-of-damage because they weren't very fun (paraphrasing Jason B from memory). Only a handful remain: phantasmal killer, which has two saves and is blocked by several different immunities, and coup de grace, which has specific requirements to pull off, but is almost always irresistable.
You described a 50% chance of killing a pit fiend with the help of a Marshal.Why is that more problematic than a
Pouncing Barb
Vivisectionist Alchemist
Synthesis Summoner
Charging Cavalier
Blaster Sorc/Wizard
Archer (various classes)
I actually described slumber hex and a CDG killing an APL+4 creature (which should be incredibly difficult, if not a TPK) with a 50% chance of success, expending neither spell slot, consumable magic items, except for a possible one round of the Pit Fiend's actions if they beat the witch in initiative. Furthermore, other than taking the Slumber hex, no additional specialisation is required by the witch to pull this off... which is okay for a simply buying-time action, but for an instakill is excessive (which is where the CDG comes in).
Pouncing Barbarian: Assuming the character is going the high strength (assuming a Str of 26 before rage), Reckless Abandon, mounted combat route with spirited charge and a +4 furious courageous lance. Ignoring the round of rage as not-a-significant-expenditure, they'll be rocking somewhere around a +36/+31/+26/+21 (1d8+39, 19-20x3) attack line against an AC of 38, with the first attack dealing triple damage (3d8+117). Accounting for hits, crits, and DR, that's an average of 167 damage on the charge. A pit fiend has 350 hit points.
In order to stand a serious chance of taking it down, he needs resources to have been expended; haste, silversheen, align weapon, heroism, bless weapon and so on. He also needs to be in a position to charge it - i.e. no party members or obstacles in the way, no difficult terrain etc. And that's with one of the single highest-damage builds going, and having invested the entire character into doing one thing: massive damage on a charge. If he isn't a mounted pouncing barbarian (I'm pretty sure that wasn't what was intended with the beast totem) then his odds are much, much slimmer. If he doesn't have reach, he's also likely to be tail-slap AO'd and grappled before his charge hits.
Vivisectionist Alchemist: Unbuffed, this character would bounce off the pit fiend's scaly hide... or more likely, be wrapped in its tail and grappled, with its charge ending.
Buffed with grand mutagen, monstrous physique (to get pounce via yea olde Takbalang) and every other buff, he's fairing a bit better. Somewhere in the +31/+31/+26/+21 (3d6+38, 17-20x2) (). Assuming align weapon and silversheen are active as well... that's somewhere in the 120 mark on average, without sneak attack. Assuming he can get all his buffs up beforehand and charge. If we also assume that he is somehow able to get his 8d6 sneak attack in with every attack as well, that would raise it to 178 is average damage.
Could he theoretically one-shot the pit fiend? Absolutely. Does he have a 50% chance of doing so in even the most advantageous of circumstances, having specially built and prepared his character to do so? No.
Charging Cavalier: With a lance and challenge going, he can comfortably punch out around 160 damage on a charge. Impressive, but not going to drop a pit fiend in one shot.
Blaster Sorcerer/Wizard: By their nature, these characters must expend significant resources to do almost anything. Taking the internet-favourite blaster wizard with Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Specialization (battering blast), Spell Perfection (battering blast), Intensify Spell, Empower Spell and Maximize Spell and Spell Penetration. You're looking at an effective caster level for battering blast of 18th with a +4 bonus to overcome spell resistance for a total of +22 against the pit fiend's SR31, so the caster need only roll a 9 to get through - a 60% chance.
An Intensified and Empowered battering blast is a 6th level spell, and applying Maximize would take it to 9th, which means it is exactly on the limits of Spell Perfection; This means you could throw three orbs at the pit fiend as ranged touch attacks (against a touch AC of 18) that deal 90 force damage each. 270 force damage, if it all gets through.
So a character who is carefully and lovingly built to do one thing (kill things with battering blast) can likely take down a pit fiend in 2-3 rounds and with a commensurate number of 6th level spell slots.
Similarly, a transmutation specialist with Spell Focus (transmutation) and Spell Specialization and Perfection (flesh to stone) would have the same odds of getting through the SR, but even with heightened-to-ninth (assuming this is even legal) spells would be looking at DC30 (or close to) Fort saves... and the pit fiend has a +24, giving it a 60% x 25% = 15% chance of success per 6th level slot.
What all of those characters have done, is specialise (some would say "optimise") to a rather large degree, and expend resources from their adventuring day for a lower likelihood of taking down said example beasty than the slumber + coup de grace, and often more requiring greater numbers of circumstances outside of direct player control to be available.
Furthermore, given the nature of how saves and damage scale, one doesn't even need a martial PC to perform the CDG to be effective. A dominated orc warrior 4 with a greataxe (no buffs, no silversheen, no align weapon) and Power Attack is looking at a Fort save DC of 45 to 50+, which is more than enough to push it into the nat-20-or-die realm.
That said, a lot depends on your group and GM. If you play with a cut-throat GM who has no compunctions against using save-or-die or coup de grace against the PCs, then almost any tactic that lets you survive is fair game. If you play in a campaign with a stronger emphasis on narrative (or at least a GM who isn't as adversarial*), or where the encounters are built with a greater emphasis on being fun and memorable and less on brutally killing the party (such as most APs), then using coup de grace at every opportunity might not be appreciated by the other people at the table.
TL;DR: Just because you can use coup de grace, doesn't mean you should.
If it's not something that already has a regular presence, you should probably ask your GM as to whether its something he wants on the table. If they say "No", respect their call (and trust them not to use it on you).
@Raynulf
I wrote a massive reply to you but paizo went down for me and I can't be bothered to right it again so this is gonna be a bit more brief. I apologize.
1) I appreciate that you went to the effort of putting to basic numbers together but I don't think your doing the builds I mentioned justice.
Concerning the Cavalier and The Barbarian
If you go to the guide to builds on Zenith games you will find a level 12 Cavalier build that has 223 DPR and I appreciate that is targeting lower AC but never the less it makes the numbers you achieved seem kind of lacking.
Concerning the Alchemist
I've heard tell of someone putting together an Alchemist that could kill Cthulu.... never the less, your Alchemist is still two hitting the pit fiend reliably on his own. Which I think makes my point to a degree but I'll expand later. (and yes anecdotal evidence)
Concerning the blaster, don't understand your assessment of a character doing 270 damage needing 3 turns to kill something with 350 health. Even with average miss chance it needs 2 turns.
Furthermore I'm fairly sure I know how to make a blaster sorc that at level 18 can do 375 to 400+ damage depending on a rule clarification I don't know. This is off the top of my head mind you. And with higher Spell pen and DCs I think.
Also I note you neglected to look into Summoners and Archers although I appreciate this would be a lot of work for you.
2)
Looking into challenge rating 20 of the d20psrd 9 of the 20ish creatures are dragons, some are undead and some are constructs. Which means a Witch using slumber is less than 50% effective at higher levels.
This isn't quite as bad at lower levels but undead/gelatinus cubes/vermins/swarms/dragons/contructs are all immune to slumber. Not to mention any encounter with more than one creature can fairly simply neutralize slumber. Put another way, this is possibly the best match up of the CR20 creatures a slumber witch could face.
Moral of the story, any dm who tries can EASILY shut down a witch that relies on slumber, and most spells on the Witch list have the same weakness (mind effecting) so for a witch to be as widely effective as the above characters would be (damage is damage) requires quite a lot of thought and investment. The popular answers are buff your friends and never actually directly contribute, which forgive me seems very dull, summon, which can be annoying as it slows down combat a lot, but to each their own and finally dazing spell, which is the most reliable way for Witches to contribute and is resource heavy. Which seems to be what you want.
Oh and one more thing, Witches don't carry round low level dominated orcs, thats not a thing for one any AOE at that level makes it pointless. To do the CDG themselves they'd have to summon something to do it for them and said summon would have to beat the fear DC. (pretty sure that Aura doesn't turn off when asleep but I may be wrong) And by the time you've done all that the alchemist and the barb and the sorc have already won.
Also what happens to this thing vs a ranger or paladin archer with FE or Smite? lol.
3)
Concerning not bringing up wrong bad fun
To be frank, its quite hard to not see what you're doing as saying SoS is wrong bad fun. You've already said explicitly these tactics aren't fun and that you would even ask someone to leave if they used them consistently. You're in an advice thread concerning whether someone should take slumber or Misfortune and you're saying slumber isn't fun and consistent use of it in partnership with party co-operation is a ex-communication worthy offence. How exactly is that not saying wrong bad fun?
Concerning the blaster, don't understand your assessment of a character doing 270 damage needing 3 turns to kill something with 350 health. Even with average miss chance it needs 2 turns.
I was taking spell resistance into account. When you only have a 60% chance of getting through, that's only a 36% chance of doing so two consecutive rounds, but a 50.4% chance of getting through 2-out-of-three attempts :)
Furthermore I'm fairly sure I know how to make a blaster sorc that at level 18 can do 375 to 400+ damage depending on a rule clarification I don't know. This is off the top of my head mind you. And with higher Spell pen and DCs I think.
I was doing a 16th level caster, to match the example Witch. That said, the witch doesn't need to be 16th - the principle holds with a 14th or even 12th, because slumber ignores spell resistance, the DC is just slightly lower. Not a problem unless someone lays the CDG in.
Also I note you neglected to look into Summoners and Archers although I appreciate this would be a lot of work for you.
Hungry toddler got hungry :(
Also, synthesist summoners have a tendency to be banned from tables for being a bit of a broken mess (stat replacement gets silly). Cool thematic, but the mechanics are a bit wonky.
My overall intent was not actually to theorycraft the best numbers, as I hadn't done that for the witch.
An old (+2 int) human (+2 int) witch (buying up to 18 at cha gen) at 12th level (+3 Int) with a Headband (+6 Int) and single tome (+1 Int) would have an Int of 32 (+11), giving her slumber hex a DC of 27 before applying feats. Add in Ability Focus (slumber hex) and Amplified Hex and you hit a DC30 at 12th level. Thus still having the greater-than-50% chance of pulling off a slumber on an APL+8 pit fiend.
But even then, that's not actually a problem. Letting the party position and then unleash a series of readied actions and full-attacks at the prone (initially sleeping, but wakes after first hit) monster is not something that bothers me in the slightest, because it is still the PCs using the abilities and statistics of their characters to fight the monster and thus their characters and their character's abilities are still relevant. When using coup de grace, the abilities of the characters are, largely, not relevant, due to the fact that a dominated low level mook or summoned creature could perform the same task with every bit as much effectiveness.
Looking into challenge rating 20 of the d20psrd 9 of the 20ish creatures are dragons, some are undead and some are constructs. Which means a Witch using slumber is less than 50% effective at higher levels.
'tis true: immunity to compulsion (including mind-affecting immunity) grants immunity to slumber hex. But at high CR the game is strewn with a myriad of immunities and resistances, so this isn't exactly a major loss, so much as a "situation normal". At high level you need more tools in your toolbox.
Concerning not bringing up wrong bad fun
To be frank, its quite hard to not see what you're doing as saying SoS is wrong bad fun. You've already said explicitly these tactics aren't fun and that you would even ask someone to leave if they used them consistently. You're in an advice thread concerning whether someone should take slumber or Misfortune and you're saying slumber isn't fun and consistent use of it in partnership with party co-operation is a ex-communication worthy offence. How exactly is that not saying wrong bad fun?
I'll repeat the last lines of my earlier post, as I think you might have missed them.
TL;DR: Just because you can use coup de grace, doesn't mean you should.
If it's not something that already has a regular presence, you should probably ask your GM as to whether its something he wants on the table. If they say "No", respect their call (and trust them not to use it on you).
I think you're confusing my argument against the use/abuse (depending on taste) of the coup de grace mechanic as a go-to-method with an argument against the use of Save-or-Suck spells.
I have no issue with control spells (aka SoS). I have no issue with a party using clever strategy and tactics to disable or ambush enemies and hitting them with devastating coordinated strikes. Because while the control spells give incredible advantage, it is still the characters using their hard earned abilities and bonuses to lay the smack down.
I do have an issue with the coup de grace rules. Coup de grace doesn't care if your fighter is a legendary 18th level hero who has survived countless battles, or a 4th level drooling village thug with a light hammer. It's going to win because the Fort save mechanic trumps saving throw progression, and who the caster gets to murder their targets is largely inconsequential. Given the steady lack of overall agency martial characters already suffer through the higher levels, I don't think CDG needs to add to it.
Hence my suggestion at the bottom: Don't bring coup de grace to the table unless you've okayed it with the GM and group first, or it was on the table already :)
Slumber/Misfortune though? Go crazy.
(Personally, I'd go Misfortune over Slumber, for the simple reasoning that it's more broadly applicable, and that when combo'd with Cackle it makes a creature not only less likely to beat your party's face in, but more susceptible to every other spell and special ability going. Slumber is a very all-or-nothing effect, and worth having, but I'd take Misfortune first).
Sorry Zainale xD
For the record I'd leave misfortune until 8 at level 6 it has a duration of one round so once you cast it you would have to cackle every round in order for it not to drop