Catch Off Guard and Firearms


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

Can the Catch Off Guard feat be used to allow a PC to strike someone with their firearm? The character this is for is using a Pistol and figured it would do the melee damage of a club at best.


I would say so, a standard pistol isn't normally used as a melee weapon so it would be an improvised weapon in regards to this feat.

As a side note, damage for a pistol and hand cross bow as "melee weapons" is described in the Empty Quiver Style feat, if you would like to point at something for damage reference.

Sovereign Court

Same damage either way, but it will make a good reference point in case a GM asks. This way the character still has some kind of weapon in hand at all times. One additional question, would using a firearm in such a way benefit from any enchants on it so long as the enchants also worked for a melee weapon? (ie +1, flaming, keen, etc)


To the first question: Yes, it can, but you would use it as an improvised weapon and would only get somewhere between a D6 for a pistol (club damage) to d8 with a musket (a weighted spear's bludgeoning damage). This doesn't allow you to benefit from anything that treats it as a firearm, as you are not using the weapon as a firearm, but an improvised weapon. Anything that applies to improvised weapons applies to this usage (so, the surprise weapon trait).

To answer the second question: Absolutely not. The weapon isn't being used as a pistol. It's being used as an improvised weapon, (which cannot be enhanced, and cannot be masterwork) which prevents it from accessing anything that would normally apply to the weapon as a pistol. If your DM did let you enhance your pistol as an improvised weapon, it would still have to be enhanced separately, applying to the weapon while an improvised weapon (and possibly accumulating additional costs, since you are adding separate bonuses and features to the same magic item).

Scarab Sages

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:

To the first question: Yes, it can, but you would use it as an improvised weapon and would only get somewhere between a D6 for a pistol (club damage) to d8 with a musket (a weighted spear's bludgeoning damage). This doesn't allow you to benefit from anything that treats it as a firearm, as you are not using the weapon as a firearm, but an improvised weapon. Anything that applies to improvised weapons applies to this usage (so, the surprise weapon trait).

Probably closer to d6 for a medium creature using a musket as a melee weapon. The bayonet which mounts to the musket and becomes a two-handed melee weapon is only dealing d6 piercing damage. Doesn't seem right that you'd deal more damage with an improvised use of basically the same weapon.

Probably 1d4 bludgeoning for a medium pistol being used as an improvised weapon.

The Gunslinger deed "pistol whip (ex)" has a medium pistol dealing 1d6. This costs 1 grit point to use.

Empty Quiver Style could also work, but it has other stipulations.


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Is the character a 3rd level Gunslinger?

Quote:
Pistol-Whip (Ex): At 3rd level, the gunslinger can make a surprise melee attack with the butt or handle of her firearm as a standard action. When she does, she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon and gains a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus of the firearm. The damage dealt by the pistol-whip is of the bludgeoning type, and is determined by the size of the firearm. One-handed firearms deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if wielded by Small creatures) and two-handed firearms deal 1d10 points of damage (1d8 if wielded by Small creatures). Regardless of the gunslinger's size, the critical multiplier of this attack is 20/×2. If the attack hits, the gunslinger can make a combat maneuver check to knock the target prone as a free action. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point.

Scarab Sages

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
To answer the second question: Absolutely not. The weapon isn't being used as a pistol. It's being used as an improvised weapon, (which cannot be enhanced, and cannot be masterwork) which prevents it from accessing anything that would normally apply to the weapon as a pistol.

As I understand it, you can improve improvised weapons through certain class features and spells.

For example, a paladin could designate a crowbar as his divine bond, as improvised weapons are certainly still weapons. He could then use divine bond to enhance this crowbar. That said, this is a huge waste of potential and really only useful on silly character concepts (or very unusual settings).

Regarding using things like divine bond and claiming that the enhancement bonus applies to improvised uses of actual ranged weapons, that I find fishy. Would be up to the GM, so expect table variation.

Silver Crusade

You know that you could just use a spiked glove and save a feat, right?

Just for clarity, when using the pistol as a blunt "weapon", you don't apply ANY feat or feature that affect the pistol, nor ANY enhancement bonus or special property. You are practically using a different, unclassified weapon.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Gray Warden, Pistol Whip adds the enhancement bonus. But otherwise you don't add anything else.

Silver Crusade

I was talking about the mere use of firearms (or any weapon) as improvised weapons.

Btw, there are also hybrid ranged/melee weapons such as dagger-pistol or axe-musket (or whatever). However they are double weapons, so the firearm and the melee components get their own enhancements and they are threated separately for the purpose of feats (eg Weapon Focus[dagger] and Weapon Focus[pistol]).

Sovereign Court

Gray Warden wrote:

You know that you could just use a spiked glove and save a feat, right?

Just for clarity, when using the pistol as a blunt "weapon", you don't apply ANY feat or feature that affect the pistol, nor ANY enhancement bonus or special property. You are practically using a different, unclassified weapon.

That's true, but the character is a Spellscar Drifter with Order of the Land, so I get Catch Off Guard for free at lvl 2

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