Blood of the Beast rules questions


Rules Questions


Recently picked up Blood of the Beast and I'm a bit confused on a few things...

The archetypes are all heavily flavored for a race but "The following racial archetypes are available to <Race>" text is missing. I can't seem to find anything that limits these archetypes. Did I miss something? Are the archetypes restricted by race or not?

A more specific question for the First Mother's Fang archetype. It takes a constrictor and makes it a mount. Snakes don't have armor slots (after they codified animal companion slots) so is every FMF cavalier stuck w/ an unarmored mount? Do they get an armor slot w/ light armor proficiency from Cavalier?

Sovereign Court

Zabraxis wrote:
A more specific question for the First Mother's Fang archetype. It takes a constrictor and makes it a mount. Snakes don't have armor slots (after they codified animal companion slots) so is every FMF cavalier stuck w/ an unarmored mount? Do they get an armor slot w/ light armor proficiency from Cavalier?

Very interesting question!

Liberty's Edge

Most of the archetypes and options in Blood of the Beast specifically say that they are available to other races. Thus, it has generally been assumed that was also the intent for the few where it is not specifically stated one way or the other.


While only one archetype specifically calls out a racial restriction, none of the archetypes have anything that calls out a lack of restriction, unlike a number of the feats and spells sections (see the catfolk feats or the kitsune spells, for example).

Given that the archetypes are heavily dipped in the flavour of the races and the lack of explicit text granting access to other races like in other sections of the book, the intent is likely for the archetypes to be racially restricted. (With the kitsune archetype likely getting the explicit restriction because it outright doesn't work with other races.)

Yes, it is somewhat ambiguous, so you could potentially make a character of a different race with them with a GM that agreed with you.

Though, ultimately, it is a book of options for those races:

Blood of the Beast wrote:

Packed full of character options for members of all classes, as well as some that members of other races can adopt, Blood of the Beast is sure to spice up any campaign!

Inside this book, you’ll find:
► New class archetypes including the tengu jinx witch, the catfolk serendipity shaman, the grippli war painter, and the vanaran fortune-finder.

Might not be explicit, but certainly seems intended for those options to be for them.

Liberty's Edge

Ok, I went through and checked each section.

The content of this book breaks down as follows;

Restricted
All traits
All favored class bonuses
All alternate racial traits
Kitsune: Nine-Tailed Heir

Not restricted
Catfolk: Serendipity Shaman and all feats
Grippli: All spells
Kitsune: Advanced Versatile Performances, all feats, all spells, and all Social & Vigilante talents
Nagaji: Naga bloodline for Bloodragers & Sorcerers, all feats, all Mesmerist tricks, and all spells
Tengus: All spells
Vanaras: All feats, all Advanced Weapon Training options, Fortune-Finder, all Unchained Monk options, and Ancestor eidolon

Unstated
Catfolk: Prowler at World's End, Ravener Hunter, Feline Wildsoul, and all spells
Grippli: Fiend Keeper, Poison Darter, War Painter, and all feats
Nagaji: First Mother's Fang
Ratfolk: Opportunist, Scavenger, Swarm Monger, all feats, and Warp discipline
Tengus: Courser, Jinx Witch, Red Tongue, and all feats


There are several cases where character options are geared toward specific races but the race is not required:

Kobold Style (Kobolds of Golarion)
Bear Hug (Blood of the Moon)
Kitsune Style (Dirty Tricks Toolbox)
Dwarven Hatred Style (Weapon Master's Handbook, also available for gnomes and custom races)
...

In general I'd assume: If it's not in the prerequisites line, it's not a prerequisite. Feats sometimes have clarifications about the requirements in the description text (e.g. Aspect of the Beast or Eldritch Heritage), but that seems to be only the case if the special requirement needs too much text for the prerequisites line.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not official but there is this post stating that the original intent is that such archetypes are not limited to race unless the prerequisites state otherwise. The linked post should apply to the catfolk, kitsune, nagaji, and vanara sections since he was the author of them. Other sections had different authors and the intent may be different for them, but overall I'd say that if it isn't in the prereqs and the archetype makes sense for other races, then it's probably ok.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Contents list

Ah, whoops. I missed the language opening those archetypes.

"SheepishEidolon wrote:
In general I'd assume: If it's not in the prerequisites line, it's not a prerequisite. Feats sometimes have clarifications about the requirements in the description text (e.g. Aspect of the Beast or Eldritch Heritage), but that seems to be only the case if the special requirement needs too much text for the prerequisites line.

In context, I don't think you can make that case quite as well. The book explicitly opens options for other races, so you run into a bit of a "it doesn't say I can't" sort of argument.


The Archive wrote:
"SheepishEidolon wrote:
In general I'd assume: If it's not in the prerequisites line, it's not a prerequisite. Feats sometimes have clarifications about the requirements in the description text (e.g. Aspect of the Beast or Eldritch Heritage), but that seems to be only the case if the special requirement needs too much text for the prerequisites line.

In context, I don't think you can make that case quite as well. The book explicitly opens options for other races, so you run into a bit of a "it doesn't say I can't" sort of argument.

Could you provide a prior existing example of an option that is restricted by race that is not specifically stated to be restricted by race?


Aren't racial archetypes available by default unless specified otherwise, as a standing rule?


Archetypes are available by default. "Racial Archetypes" were defined in The ARG to only apply to the race whose chapter they were described. However, the Blood of Beasts did not specify the archetypes it describes as "Racial Archetypes," just "Archetypes."

The confusion comes from the assumption that a book about specific races would surely be race restricted. However, it appears that most of it is not restricted.

My personal and valueless opinion is that since 4/7ths of the material would be useless to PFS players if it was restricted, they opted to forgo the idea of "Racial Archetypes" in this book with the Kitsune soercerer archetype the exception (and even then it's an Archetype with a specific requirement, not a "Racial Archetype").


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For the armor: the constrictor has Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat, however it is unable to use it right away as it does not have an armor slot (nothing in Cavalier states that it gains an armor slot, and Animal Archive's chart states that serpentine creatures do not have armor slots). Outside of PFS, the Extra Item Slot feat can be used to give it an armor slot so that you may equip it with armor. In PFS that feat works differently and can't be used to gain access to arbitrary slots.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Barding stitches can be used outside PFS for animals that cannot normally accommodate armor.


Thanks for the info (and the breakdown CB). I was hoping there was a clarification one way or the other for the archetypes but RAW they seem to be allowed.

As for the FMF Cavalier, the Extra Slot feat seems a feat tax to do what the base class already does and screws over PFS players. I'm on the fence if mount w/ Grab is better than an armored mount.

Those Barding Stitches are just incredibly spiteful. "If you *REALLY* want to use the fantasy creature we wrote (and we deemed it silly for them to wear armor) you can do it with these but you'll pay dearly to reach the baseline."


Blake's Tiger wrote:
The Archive wrote:
"SheepishEidolon wrote:
In general I'd assume: If it's not in the prerequisites line, it's not a prerequisite. Feats sometimes have clarifications about the requirements in the description text (e.g. Aspect of the Beast or Eldritch Heritage), but that seems to be only the case if the special requirement needs too much text for the prerequisites line.

In context, I don't think you can make that case quite as well. The book explicitly opens options for other races, so you run into a bit of a "it doesn't say I can't" sort of argument.

Could you provide a prior existing example of an option that is restricted by race that is not specifically stated to be restricted by race?

There are the archetypes from Kobolds of Golarion. Also some options in Blood of the Elements, like the ifrit cavalier order.

Heck, even the Monster Codex has things like this.


The Archive wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
The Archive wrote:
"SheepishEidolon wrote:
In general I'd assume: If it's not in the prerequisites line, it's not a prerequisite. Feats sometimes have clarifications about the requirements in the description text (e.g. Aspect of the Beast or Eldritch Heritage), but that seems to be only the case if the special requirement needs too much text for the prerequisites line.

In context, I don't think you can make that case quite as well. The book explicitly opens options for other races, so you run into a bit of a "it doesn't say I can't" sort of argument.

Could you provide a prior existing example of an option that is restricted by race that is not specifically stated to be restricted by race?

There are the archetypes from Kobolds of Golarion. Also some options in Blood of the Elements, like the ifrit cavalier order.

Heck, even the Monster Codex has things like this.

Having no vested interest in the outcome, I checked your examples. All Kobold archetypes are legal for any race (despite what Archives of Nethys says) as indicated on 2. Kobolds of Golarion is not legal for PFS, so they have no ruling for their campaign. The Order of the Flames is not restricted in Blood of the Elements (technically an Undine could take it) as it lists no restrictions in the book. PFS has ruled it legal for any character.

I don't see any instances of character options being restricted without specifically stating that they are restricted or listing a prerequisite with the possible exception of Racial Spells in the Monster Codex because I don't possess the front material where the "(Race) Spells" is defined.

This leads me to the conclusion that if it is not stated to be restricted in front material (E.g. Racial Archetypes in ARG or the limited list of feats and spells listed in KoG) or in the feature's text (MC and Kitsune Sorcerer Archetype in BotB), then RAW, it is available to any race.

Sovereign Court

So... what hoops does a FMF jump through to get his snake armored?


Skizzerz figured it out. The snake has to take the Extra Slot (Armor) feat. It doesn't help PFS since Extra Slot is banned but it works in regular games.

If FMF makes the cut for PFS I hope they either grant the armor slot or allow the Extra Slot (Armor) feat.

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