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Was checking out the Chakra system and it describes opening Chakras as a Swift Action. The only requirement is that you have to be double the level of chakra.
The maintain portion states that during the rounds that you have chakras open, you have to make the Will and Fort saves. Failure resulting in damage or losing your Chakras.
So what happens on the turn you activate the Crown Chakra? Do you have to make the DC 38 saves beforehand, losing all progess if you fail? Or do you open the Chakra - thus benefiting from the double d20s, and then make the maintain roll?
Also, when do you have to use the swift action? I see it as...
1. Turn Starts, Immediately decide to Maintain/Drop/Open, make the Save, benefit from Chakra
2. Turn starts, make save for having open chakra, open/maintain/drop, gain benefits
3. Turn starts, open/maintain/drop - at some point during turn make saves
That was poorly worded in hindsight but I think you get what I'm asking. Thanks :D
Every round you have to spend an action, ki, and make all the saves. Chakras are terrible.
You do not open a specific chakra until after a successful save, so you would only benefit from them after having saved.
Every round you have to spend an action, ki, and make all the saves. Chakras are terrible.
You do not open a specific chakra until after a successful save, so you would only benefit from them after having saved.
Well the action economy, save difficulties, and ki cost is mitigated by Sperpent-Fire Adept.
Can I ask where in the rules it says that you don't open the chakra with a failed save? I see that if you fail the Will save you are dazed and lose all progress and the Fort makes you take damage, but the "Activating Chakra" section says nothing about needing to make a save to open them.
Well the action economy, save difficulties, and ki cost is mitigated by Sperpent-Fire Adept.Every round you have to spend an action, ki, and make all the saves. Chakras are terrible.
You do not open a specific chakra until after a successful save, so you would only benefit from them after having saved.
Trust me, nothing mitigates how absolutely worthless Chakras are unless you use housrules. Your ki and actions are better spent elsewhere. Serprent-Fire adept doesn't do enough.
But if you've got a concept in mind, go for it I guess. I'd recommend using the Unchained Monk version of the archetype at least.
Can I ask where in the rules it says that you don't open the chakra with a failed save? I see that if you fail the Will save you are dazed and lose all progress and the Fort makes you take damage, but the "Activating Chakra" section says nothing about needing to make a save to open them.
Failing the will save causes all Chakras to close. It's right in the Chakra section.
Every round in which a character has one or more awakened chakras, he must succeed at Fortitude and Will saving throws, adding his Charisma modifier to each save, to resist the inherent dangers of the kundalini flow as it suffuses his body with spiritual fire. The save DCs are equal to 10 + the sum of the ranks of the awakened chakras
A round that you open a chakra is also a round in which you have one or more awakened chakras, so you need to save even on the first round.
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SerpentFire Adept is pretty fun. Playing one at level 12 currently, I only fail the saves on a Nat 1 but have spent a lot of my resources to achieve it.
Only having to spend/save to maintain every other round and only having to do Fort to maintain works pretty well. Chakras aren't really a great mechanic until Serpent Fire Adept 6 or 7 IMO, that's when the archetype makes it fun and doable.
Trust me, nothing mitigates how absolutely worthless Chakras are unless you use housrules. Your ki and actions are better spent elsewhere. Serprent-Fire adept doesn't do enough.
I really think you aren't giving this archetype enough credit. The ability to not spend Ki for 1 round (2 rounds at 16th) effectively doubles/triples the amount of rounds you can keep the Chakra going.
Also, once you hit level 6, you effectively can't lose the Chakras on turns that you are just maintaining the same level (by only going for the Fortitude save.) Sure, you risk taking some damage, but not closing Chakra.
Failing the will save causes all Chakras to close. It's right in the Chakra section.
Right, failing a Will save does close all open chakra, but that wasn't the question. It was whether or not you have to make a separate save to open said Chakra. Let me expand on this a little more.
I've read the few threads about this and people were referencing that the level 2 Chakra Expertise ability that adds 1/2 monk level on Will and Fort saves only applied AFTER the first save (implying that opening the Chakra was it's own separate thing.)
However, after looking at how it all works out, it suggest the opposite is true. Opening the Chakra seems to take no save whatsoever, and then, AFTER the Chakra is opened, you make the save to maintain.
Assuming we have the 6th Chakra open already...during our turn (most often right away), we have to make a choice: Spend a Ki point to Maintain Chakra level, Spend a Ki point to increase Chakra level, or spend no Ki to cease Chakra.
Each round, when expending the ki for that round, the initiate can select the benefit from one chakra awakened up to that point.
So, once you have spent the Ki to open to Chakra seven, you would immediately get to choose the benefits from reaching said level. After you pay the 1 Ki to confirm you are keeping Chakra going this round, you have to make your Will and Fort saves to maintain the new Chakra level.
You should get the 2d20 - take best, and the +1/2 level on the saves here because you are maintaining the chakra. You would not, however, be able to use the Chakra Adept ability to only roll Fort or Will because you are maintaining on a round that you opened a Chakra.
Because of this, it seems to me like you open the Chakra just by spending 1 Ki and a Swift Action, then make the maintain saves with the +1/2 Monk level bonus.
SerpentFire Adept is pretty fun. Playing one at level 12 currently, I only fail the saves on a Nat 1 but have spent a lot of my resources to achieve it.
Only having to spend/save to maintain every other round and only having to do Fort to maintain works pretty well. Chakras aren't really a great mechanic until Serpent Fire Adept 6 or 7 IMO, that's when the archetype makes it fun and doable.
Is the above interpretation correct to you? Off Topic what resources did you pour into your saves? what was your ability score layout?
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I've been playing that you make the saves when you spend ki, however now on a more careful read I can't find anything that says when to make the save, only it must be done on the round. Wonder if I can sell it to my GM...
Off Topic This is in an AP, not PFS. Unchained Monk. Here's my investment into Chakra saves...
Stats: CON 14 WIS 18 CHA 10 (before items)
Traits: Resilient, Fate's Favored, Adopted: Carefully Hidden (I've got a drawback)
Feats: Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Great Fortitude
Items: +5 cloak, cracked pale green prism (saves), belt of STR/CON +2, headband of WIS +4, a couple lucky horseshoes (for the 1/day +4 luck on a save), corset of delicate moves (in case I get robbed of my swift at the wrong time)
Spells: Heroism usually
So Chakra-wise that's a +30 FORT and +29 WILL (can increase these by 3 with my lucky horseshoes).
I suppose one good thing about investing like that is that you'll probably have pretty decent saves all around. And the chakra benefits are fairly decent.
Anyway, reading the rules myself, I think you guys are totally right. There is not a determined time when during a turn you need to save. So I'll assume it works like poisons do. You can determine some point in your turn to make the save, which then determines if you take the poison effect or if you purge it from your system. Presumably, this is the same for chakras, so you could unlock one of the chakras, have it's benefits, then make the save at the end of your turn to maintain them (spending a Ki point somewhere in the round prior to this).
You need to spend a Ki or do something before any saves or determining if your chakra closes, but otherwise you have control over when you need to make saves.
My point is that Chakras never stop being bad. The powers range from decent like DR to worthless like the breath weapon. The archetype also doesnt allow the character to open Chalras any sooner than normal which makes the powers even less useful than they already are. On top of that, when opening Chakras you have to do it sequentially, meaning that you'll spend 3-4 rounds powering up before you can get to any decent powers.
Its not like monks are swimming in Ki anyways. Every point youre spending on Chakra is a point thays not being spent making an extra attack.
So youve got a suite of powers that are situationally useful at best but are hamstrung by innane level requirements and tremendous action and resource investments compared to the benefits. Serpent fire adept mitigates the problem, but doesnt do enough to make Chakras worthwhile IMO.
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At level 12 being able to do a no-save, no-resist 5d8 breath attack isn't really that bad for a martial, that's 22.5 average damage for free on top of your flurry of blows for whoever you can catch in it. For bonus points, use your swift during your flying kick to shape the cone to only hit bad guys; going 5' up means you can blast a 10' square below you.
Picking up Ki Leech at 10 is a must to keep you going. Bag of rats or some summoning items could keep you going a very long time. In practice I've never gone below 5 spent ki after picking it up, but that's thanks due to an agile Urumi Ascetic Strike build.
I'll even power up at the door if we expect a fight, while everyone else is casting buffs.
That being said, Chakras aren't really very good at low levels, but once you pick up some class features it becomes a very fun and worthwhile. The 6-7-8 range is when I think it becomes worth it as a strategy.
This discussion gave me the idea that you could activate a chakra as a readied action of when the next turn starts. There wouldn't be a save until your turn came back around, since you are doing it outside of a round.
On top of that, when opening Chakras you have to do it sequentially, meaning that you'll spend 3-4 rounds powering up before you can get to any decent powers.
I think most of the useful powers are the earlier ones anyway, excluding the Crown Chakra's "5th Edition DnD Advantage" on all d20 rolls. If you explicitly DO need the higher Chakras sooner, there is the Linked Chakra ability where 1/day @ 7, 2 @ 12, and 3 @ 17, you can open as many as you want as a standard action - so it's only a one turn powerup at that point.
Ki also gets pretty high if you take some of the vows, no? Poverty works pretty well now with the Magical Tattoos and, in home games, Automatic Bonus Progression which is an extra 20 at level 20. Wasn't vow of Silence also changed at some point to being 1/level? I know the books said it but the pfsrd still has 1/6th level.
If it has been confirmed to be 1/level, that's [2*level]+[1/2 level]+Wis which can actually be quite a bit. This can be extended pretty far with the whole "spend 1 ki for 3 rounds of maintaining chakra" granted through Chakra Expertise, and it's value can be shown at 10th level with the whole "pick two abilities for 1 ki that stacks with the pick-two bonus of the seventh chakra" with the Chakra Mastery ability.
I 100% agree that it isn't the most optimal way to build a monk, but I would contest that it isn't "Terrible"
At level 12 being able to do a no-save, no-resist 5d8 breath attack isn't really that bad for a martial, that's 22.5 average damage for free on top of your flurry of blows for whoever you can catch in it. For bonus points, use your swift during your flying kick to shape the cone to only hit bad guys; going 5' up means you can blast a 10' square below you.
What kind of action is it to do the breath weapon? It just kinda says "upon awakening his (your) navel chakra..." is it a free action as part of it? standard action?
Picking up Ki Leech at 10 is a must to keep you going. Bag of rats or some summoning items could keep you going a very long time. In practice I've never gone below 5 spent ki after picking it up, but that's thanks due to an agile Urumi Ascetic Strike build.
Definitely noted. Will make sure to fit room for that for the future.
That being said, Chakras aren't really very good at low levels, but once you pick up some class features it becomes a very fun and worthwhile. The 6-7-8 range is when I think it becomes worth it as a strategy.
I like to think of these chakras somewhere between the Avatar (the last airbender) enlightenment interpretation, and the 8-Gates of Life from Naruto. It totally makes sense that they aren't really a viable strategy low level because you need to practice with such an enlightenment.
Do I wish they did more to be like the Gates from Naruto? Yesh - something like a bonus to STR and DEX based on number of Chakras open would be super dope (but maybe balance it by increasing the damage on failed Fort saves.) This isn't the thread on how to make it better though...rather just the rules on how these darned things work.
This discussion gave me the idea that you could activate a chakra as a readied action of when the next turn starts. There wouldn't be a save until your turn came back around, since you are doing it outside of a round.
Can you use a Swift action as a readied action? I feel like I've read somewhere it can only be standard actions - not their equivalents...maybe I'm just going crazy.
You can ready a standard, move, swift or free action. But it still costs a standard action on your round to set it up.
I 100% agree that it isn't the most optimal way to build a monk, but I would contest that it isn't "Terrible"
I suppose I should clarify that my problem is mostly with Chakras themselves being bad. Serpent-fire adept is only bad by association I guess. The root chakra is good, but hamstrung by being level capped (even DR 7/- isn't all that impressive at 14th level). The sacral chakra only provides limited flight that has to end on the ground and it's slow, even with serpent-fire adept thrown in. Considering how easy it is to get flight via magic items as the game goes on I can't really see why one would use this outside of a corner case. Moving into the navel and heart chakras I think it's pretty obvious that the devs didn't really put any effort into this. I assume both of these abilities are standard actions. Navel does crap damage for the level it comes online (seriously, 1d8 at 6th level?) Heart chakra does crap healing and is only redeemed slightly by removing debuffs, but by 8th level someone else on the team should have more competent and reliable healing available. Throat chakra comes along with a crap debuff in conjunction with an easy save and no ability to bypass immunity to mind-affecting. Brow chakra could have been good, but if you didn't have some way to see invisible creatures by 12th level then you're probably already dead. Finally Crown Chakra comes online and is wonderfully strong. Too bad you have to wade through 14 levels of the rest of the crappy chakras to get to it.
I apologize if I'm derailing or ranting. I'm venting frustrating with just how bad the frickin Chakra sub-system is for literally no reason whatsoever. I've tried multiple times to make a character using Chakras and every time I stop when I realize how much a character is putting in to get a handful of powers that are on par with low-level magic items.
Also, I haven't seen it mentioned yet but the Second Chance trait is going to be very helpful as a clutch option for a Chakra user.
I suppose I should clarify that my problem is mostly with Chakras themselves being bad.
I really do like Root Chakra, even though it is capped at DR 7/- at level 14, that is still as good as the Invulnerable Rager's at that point (and better than the level 20 base Barbarian.) It's an easy second power to tack on when you get the ability to pick 2/3 and just a good one to default to when you don't need another one. The flying portion of the Sacral Chakra is limited, sure, by needing to end on the ground. That being said, the Light Spirit does increase the duration out to Wisdom rounds (even if you close chakra), so you can stay afloat for a little while longer. I think the main benefit to this is that you will be able to fly a whole level earlier than full casters - and later on you will have enough ki to burn 2 levels of Chakra to fly consistently (if you don't want to invest in permanent fly.)
I completely agree with you that the Navel and Throat Chakras seem to be poorly worded and leave a few questions. That being said, the fact that you "benefet from one chakra awakened" "when expending the ki for that round", it could be argued that you get these abilities for free as part of the swift action.
If that is true (which is also what ShieldLawrence is alluding to), then the Navel Chakra is effectively a free 2d8 + (1d8/chakra beyond 3) damage each round in an AoE which, of course, could be better...but that is still just more free damage.As for the Heart Chakra, if the above assumption is correct that it is part of the swift action...it's effectively 1d8 + (chakra x 2) fast healing that also removes status. That sounds pretty damned good actually. When you get it (level 8) that's 1d8 + 8 hp for free each round if you need the top-off. It's better than a cure light wounds potion ('_>') and it makes you able to let that more efficient healer focus on other members. I agree that the Throat Chakra isn't the best thing. To me, providing that the activation of the other bonuses are part of awakening the Chakra, this is the weakest of them all. I guess you could use in niche situations (you could pump your Wisdom to high levels to boost the save as a free stagger each round) but this one is situational at best.
The Brow True Seeing boon, I feel, goes beyond the scope of just invisible creatures. Sure, casters usually pack tools to help get around invisibility, that doesn't stop blur, displacement, auto defeat illusions and the like. So, I see it more of a "turn on if your opponent is mirror imaging, bluring, displacement, invisible and the caster ran out of wand / scrolls / has no spells left, see into the Ethereal Plane. It has both in combat and out uses which is cool to me. 120 range is nice as well (you can spot the invisible coming from far away.)
Obviously the Crown is amazing, it's the whole reason going into this Chakra system is worth it. It makes you so much more accurate in your attacks, better at all Saves, skill checks, etc. The dream is getting to that point and getting 2-3 abilities every round. Probably defaulting on the DR and double d20s, splashing in fly every Wisdom rounds, and Healing / Breath Weapon when you need them.
I think the pivotal point in this whole class (the reason I started this thread in the first place) is how the bonuses work. If you have to activate these "when you awaken the chakra" abilites as a separate action, it does significantly bring the power down. If they auto-activate when you awaken the chakra (which the wording suggests it does), I think they can be a great way to spend your Swift Action and build a character around.
As for your frustration, I appreciate you challenging this as it is making me take a more critical look at the rules. I honestly just think that people are misinterpreting how the Chakras function. I'd like to believe that they made this whole system with the mindset of being functional and worth it.
Second Chance is nice, the reroll could come in very clutch. I'm currently looking at Half-Orc Sacred Tattoo, Fate's Favored, Indomitable Faith (or Adopted - Carefully Hidden) for a quick +3 to Will saves.
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Perhaps I have a more pessimistic viewpoint than you.
I do believe that the use of the breath weapon and healing ability are probably standard actions.
While I agree with some of what you've put forward, my conclusion is that outside of the root and crown Chakras are situationally useful at best, and that's why it's so hard to justify sinking so many class levels/traits/wealth/feats into pursuing them.
Activating Chakras
. . . Awakening chakras or maintaining chakras is a swift action that costs 1 ki point . . . Each round when expending the ki for that round, the initiate can select the benefit from one chakra awakened up to that point.
It really does seem like the main intent is that the benefit occurs right when you spend the Ki for maintaining.
Navel Chakra
. . . Upon awakening his navel chakra, the initiate can channel the serpent-fire as a breath attack . . .
Heart Chakra
. . . Once the heart chakra has been awakened, the initiate can channel his serpent-fire into a torrent of healing energy. . .
Emphasis mine. I seems like "awakening" the chakra is choosing which chakra to gain benefit from, which would in turn, give you the bonus right when you choose to awaken that chakra (as part of the 1 Ki Swift Action)
I mean, that does seem like a fair point. I would hope it bundled together with the swift action Ki expenditure, just so that it doesn't become TOO action inefficient, since it is already taking forever to get them all open.
I believe awakening a Chakra is reffering to reaching that stage in the progression.
If they were swift action abilities that would change the dynamic of the Chakras significantly. It would also make things really...weird, at least compared to how abilities typically function in PF. For example, after you spend a swift action to open the Crown chakra, can you select both the Navel and Heart Chakra to gain free damage and healing? Can you only select one in conjunction with the swift action you're already using?
Maybe this is FAQ worthy.
I believe awakening a Chakra is reffering to reaching that stage in the progression.
If they were swift action abilities that would change the dynamic of the Chakras significantly. It would also make things really...weird, at least compared to how abilities typically function in PF. For example, after you spend a swift action to open the Crown chakra, can you select both the Navel and Heart Chakra to gain free damage and healing? Can you only select one in conjunction with the swift action you're already using?
Maybe this is FAQ worthy.
Honestly, if this thread demonstrates anything, it is that there is a severe lack of clarity about how chakras actually work. So a FAQ to more adequately explain how they function would be wonderful.
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So to sum up the questions we have...
1. When do you have to make the Fort and Will Save to maintain Chakra? The start of your turn, right before you decide to awaken the next one, immediately after you awaken your next one, the end of your turn, whenever you want in the turn?
2. At what point do you benefit from said awakened Charka bonuses? If one awakens the Crown Chakra, do they gain the benefit before they attempt the DC 38 save to maintain the Chakra?
3. What type of action is it to activate the Navel, Heart, and Throat Chakras? Do you immediately gain their bonuses during the Swift Action to maintain / awaken, or are they some sort of other action?
4. Is there supposed to be a save for the Navel Chakra's breath attack? If so, what is the formula for the DC?
-as an offside question-
5. Has the vow of silence discrepancy ever been cleared up? In the second printing of Ultimate Magic (January 2012), the Vow of Silence offers +1 ki/level but the online resources offer +1/6 level. The errata showed the buff in Poverty from 1/2 to 1, but did not talk about Silence.
EDIT
Added a question about whether or not there is supposed to be a save on the 30 ft. Cone Breath Attack coupled with the Navel Chakra.
4. Has the vow of silence discrepancy ever been cleared up? In the second printing of Ultimate Magic (January 2012), the Vow of Silence offers +1 ki/level but the online resources offer +1/6 level. The errata showed the buff in Poverty from 1/2 to 1, but did not talk about Silence.
I would assume that whatever the most recent printing says would be the most up-to-date rule. If the 2012 printing has +1 Ki/level, assume that the online resource is inaccurate.
I would assume that whatever the most recent printing says would be the most up-to-date rule. If the 2012 printing has +1 Ki/level, assume that the online resource is inaccurate.
Yeah that's what I figured...I just thought it was interesting that pretty much every resource I use for rules (pfsrd, archives of nethys, and the masterwork tools android app) have it as the old ruling.
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Activating Chakras
. . . Awakening chakras or maintaining chakras is a swift action that costs 1 ki point . . . Each round when expending the ki for that round, the initiate can select the benefit from one chakra awakened up to that point.It really does seem like the main intent is that the benefit occurs right when you spend the Ki for maintaining.
Navel Chakra
. . . Upon awakening his navel chakra, the initiate can channel the serpent-fire as a breath attack . . .Emphasis mine. I seems like "awakening" the chakra is choosing which chakra to gain benefit from, which would in turn, give you the bonus right when you choose to awaken that chakra (as part of the 1 Ki Swift Action)Heart Chakra
. . . Once the heart chakra has been awakened, the initiate can channel his serpent-fire into a torrent of healing energy. . .
This is how I see the rules as well.
I like Johnnycat93 have thought about trying to make a chakra based pc and felt that it's just not viable at all.
I'm also not sure how it all works anyways maybe it's better than I think. I mean I think you can open more than one chakra per round. Look at this text:
Opening all seven chakras at once results in DC 38 saves.
So would that be 14 DC 38 saves in one round? Good luck. ;)
This reminds me of the Acolyte of the Ego(I think I have that right) from 3.5 that thematically was amazing just like chakras but rule wise you needed to hit these very high saves to use your powers.
You can't open multiple at once. That text is referring to the saves necessary to have all seven Chakras open at once. Hence why serpent-fire adept has an ability that allows opening multiple Chakras at once.
That is worded extremely poorly.
Yeah, but opening the seventh would make you face a DC 38 Fort and Will right after you opened it (and get 2d20 take better result.) Or at least, thats the way the order of operations would make it seem.
- Effect passively waiting for Chakras to be on.
1. Spend Ki and Swift action to open Chakra /maintain
1.A. Choose Benefit(s) to gain from opening Chakra as part of the Swift Action.
1.B. Gain the benefits of the Awakened Chakras
2. Now that the if-then statement of the Saves portion is true, you make the Will and Fort Saves.
Because if on action 1 you decide to drop the chakras, you dont have to save. I'm confident that this is how it is supposed to function.
That is worded extremely poorly.
The whole section sucks in that it feels really crammed into the little page space it has.