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Redo her character as a sorcerer and don't tell her. :0
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Sounds like she likes the IDEA of playing, but not ACTUALLY playing.
It's not clear in your post - Are you the DM or a fellow player?
Her participation is obviously not vital to the party as a whole. Have the other players voiced any complaints to you or her?
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Frankly, she sounds like someone who doesn't respect your time or that of the other players (I am assuming you are the DM).
Pathfinder is a cooperative game, premised on the idea of a bunch of like minded people coming together to tell a story and have some fun. For her to show no interest in investing time into learning how to play her character or advancing it, that signals a certain level of disrespect. But to fall asleep mid-session takes to to a whole other level...
Is there some non-game-related reason why you feel the need to keep her around? Because for me, this behaviour would warrant a polite but firm invitation to look for a different game.
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Magus and Wizard seem like the absolute worst class choices for someone who doesn't want to be hassled with homework or bookkeeping.
Maybe something simpler to pilot would be more up her alley? I mean, I'm a 20+ year veteran of this family of games and I hate playing Wizards, so I don't.
Yeah, sounds like the player in question has a lot of "important" non-gaming stuff to do in their life, and just wants to game as a distraction. Nothing wrong with that, in a group of tight friends where you all do different stuff together. But in a game where everyone else is more invested it can be distracting.
The GM should definitely do something story-wise to draw her character in, if she's falling asleep in session. The GM should also help with the character; if she just wants a blaster wizard, help her build that as good as possible; even if a blaster is sub-optimal, an optimized blaster is still better than a crappy blaster. There are a crap ton of options in PF that let a person build almost anything, but players who are just gaming casually need some guidance in sorting though them.
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we had a player like this air kineticist at level 5 she had a +6 to hit targeting normal AC is seemingly no utility
She would complain about missing things and her character not doing much, then refuse to sit down and let us go over the character with her.
One week she fell asleep in game and then the next she didn't bother to level up her character.
We ended up telling her politely that we didn't think the game was for her and would be carrying on without her.
Sounds harsh but in the words of another player she 'literally sucked every ounce of enjoyment out of every moment of play' she did also resist plot hooks constantly and tried to go tourist shopping everywhere we went so your situation may not be quite so difficult xD
if the player is on board just let her be irrelevant and politely tell her that if she is going to hit player characters expect them to hit her back, whether it be playful or not.
Without accusing of anything, ask her what she wants out of the game.
Everyone has a reason why they play, and a polite way to have her communicate her reasons may help identify if this is the wrong game for her, or if there is room to draw her into the game more - don't cater the game to her interest, but add elements that would up the engagement level.
Politely inform her of how her actions or lack of, are affecting everyone else. Don't get in her face about it, this is just a game after all. If she gets defensive, don't escalate, diffuse it.
If she is just wanting the passive company, the security of having friends about but not really conversing, she could still be invited to the sessions, just as a spectator (she'd be free to fall asleep then - but don't tell her that out loud!)
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I am a player, not the dm. All 7 of us including dm worked at same place. I got a new job but they all still work together.
It was hilarious when it was her turn someone kicked her and she woke up and threw a random d20 we were all laughing because it was terrible.
Obviously we aren't there and don't know the whole store of what is happening, but based just on this description it seems to me that you have a larger problem than just a player who doesn't know the game. To me, the whole table environment feels kinda toxic.
I think the first thing before any other actions would be to find out why she's disconnected from the game.
Is she actually lazy and doesn't care or is she really interested but has other things going in in her life which are causing this. Speak with the GM about it and have him sit down and talk to her.
If it does come down to that she's just lazy and doesn't care and that's harming the game for everyone else then respectfully ask her to leave.
If it's that she's having problems with the story, rules or in her personal life then try to offer some help and support to see what can be done to bring her back into the game.
If everyone else is having fun and doesn't see this as an issue then it might just be that the problem falls on you. It might be you need to relax a little and accept that she's not the kind of gamer you are, or if it's really not something you can do then step away from the group and find another.
End of the day the only way to solve such issues is for people to be open, mature and adult. Chat about it and see what can be done.
If someone does bad characters and doesn't mind being bad... what's the problem? I woukd nit allow PCs to harm each other in normal circumstances though. Grapples okay, nonlethal at most, but any more than that I think I'd step in and just say "no, I won't allow that."
This can also be a case where some people are playing a serious game and some are just seeing it as a social time. The latter tends to have a lot more table antics.
You need to figure out which game people want, and which one you want to be a part of.
If someone does bad characters and doesn't mind being bad... what's the problem?
The problem is that the game has rules for difficulty based on how many players on in the game.
She sounds like dead weight to the group in the game. It's a team game if someone isn't contributing to the party they are just making it more difficult for the rest. That's the issue.
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If someone does bad characters and doesn't mind being bad... what's the problem?The problem is that the game has rules for difficulty based on how many players on in the game.
She sounds like dead weight to the group in the game. It's a team game if someone isn't contributing to the party they are just making it more difficult for the rest. That's the issue.
The difference between this and a video game is that is specifically is designed to have flexible rules that the GM can change.
If the difficulty is to high because of one player not wanting to optimize then the difficulty can be easily re-balanced to be easier.
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Different levels of involvement can be difficult to handle. I'd start by talking to this person and trying to find out why they want to play. If it's really only about the social gathering for them... maybe they can play a less necessary character, like a mascot. So they'd have RP elements and could be silly without having to worry too much about rule elements.
Or maybe they just can't get into the class. Perhaps offering them a new character, maybe something more martial with less rule elements to worry over.
Or maybe they need a side session with someone to help them make the character more real. Develop a personality and backstory for the character, put together a build sheet so that leveling is not longer an issue and maybe even put some NPCs in the world to specifically draw the player more into the game.
Either which way the answer will have to be tailored from the involvement the player is willing to have and what they want to get out of the experience. And at the least it has to be recognized that this game may just not be for them. At least not at this time.
The difference between this and a video game is that is specifically is designed to have flexible rules that the GM can change.
Especially because this is a 6 player group (7 people, one DM) and pretty much every published scenario is balanced around having 4 players. So if you have a six person group, running it for 5 contributing PCs and one beloved mascot is going to be less work for the GM than running it for 6 contributing PCs.
As someone who gets migraines trying to work on wizards and magus, might sorcerer be an easier fit?
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There are lots of different types of player personalities; sounds like you have a Watcher on your hands.
We've had a lot of Watchers over the years, but they require a little different handling. My personal recommendation for a Watcher is for the group to take over the leveling and mechanical portion of character creation. Have the Watcher give out whatever guidelines they like for what they'd want their character to be, then the group helps build it. Simple options - especially passive, "always on" options - play very well (toughness, dodge, diehard, iron will, weapon focus, etc.) Odds are this player didn't make it past the class description and *that's* what appealed to them, rather than anything mechanically related to the class.
For a spellcaster, Sorcerers and Oracles are wonderful, and I'd even go so far as to print out or create spell card props that the player can physically handle that contains everything the player needs.
If she's a new player, then someone should've talked her into being a Fighter or Barbarian. Those are super simple classes and a Barb can get away with raging without factoring in their rage powers and still be useful. Fighters are, like, the poster child class for new players to understand the game mechanics.
If she really wants magic, have her play a fighter with a trait that gives UMD as a class skill and give her Skill Focus: UMD, then pass her a wand or a scroll.
I'd vote a spontenous casting 3/4 BAB 2/3 casting character
gives them a taste of everything and is in my opinion the sweet spot for pathfinder classes between effective at every level, not game braking and not a let down.
She tells me she has too much free time. She wants to play the game in general but she doesn't want to do any homework.
Ok, so with this person, just tell her, "Hey, I have a character in mind that is a fantastic match for you!
Then, proceed to help her make a fighter that is equally good with a cestus and buckler as (s)he is with a longbow.
Now, she doesn't have to think at all and she can more or less attack anything at any time. Easy!
You should endeavor to help her match her skill level with a class that is her speed, and fighters more or less do not require any specialized mastery of the system beyond character creation.
Cheers.
I am a player, not the dm. All 7 of us including dm worked at same place. I got a new job but they all still work together.
It was hilarious when it was her turn someone kicked her and she woke up and threw a random d20 we were all laughing because it was terrible.
I assume as a magus she could take more damage as a semi meat shield instead the wizard is taking hits because she is hiding in the back. She also adds to the difficulty of the encounter but doesn't provide the hits we need to make up for that I luckily summoned 5 rhinos as meat shields and threw up a wall to block a ranger and then a haste for everyone.
We were surrounded by 5 hunters which were all previous dm pcs and we started at level 7 with no equipment.
I have to use everything I have so we can survive and she is trying to cast magic missle
Well, if your complaint is that the GM is designing encounters for 7, even though there are only an effective 6 players there, then the GM shouldn't have much issue designing the encounters around 6 people instead of 7. I mean, it shouldn't be that difficult to do, especially if it comes to the point that the player decides they no longer want to be a part of the group.
Magi are the gods of "Nova", AKA the 15 minute adventuring day. The amount of burst damage they can inflict is beyond ridiculous (though a truly optimized blaster can do better if they want).
They only have D8 hit dice and can only run around with Light Armor to begin with. Compared to other suitable frontliners, a la Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, and so on, that's not very stable. Even the chained Monk is a flight risk, and that's only mitigated by having perfect saves across the board. Also, that Wizard is a silly Wizard if he's being caught in a position of taking hits, especially when he has the ability to cast spells like Improved Invisibility, Blur, Mirror Images, and so on.
Magic Missile has its uses. For example, if I readied a Magic Missiles on an enemy casting a spell (because I don't want to burn a precious 3rd level Dispel Magic slot), I can use Magic Missile to hopefully disrupt their concentration, and they'd have to make several concentration checks (upwards of 5) or lose the spell. Another example is when fighting incorporeals or creatures with energy resistances; almost no creatures have Force resistance, and Magic Missile is a good means to poke enemies down.
Granted, when you get higher level, such spells lose their potency, but Magic Missiles can still be useful, especially if you're running low on spell power. It's just that a smart caster will know when casting Magic Missiles is a wise decision or not.
Encounter balance is GM jurisdiction. If the encounters are really hard, either he is pulling them off as intended, or he is making mistakes. Can't expect the GM to perfectly predict how characters will act in the first sessions but pas that he should have a pretty good idea.
As others have said, PF isn't a video game. Difficulty is dynamic and fully in the hands of the GM, even in published AP for the most part.
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I have had players come not to play so much as just socialize. As long as it adds to the fun I'm down but if it takes away you have to change something. I had one guy who couldn't keep a character alive to ... save his life...(sorry.) He was fun to have and he had fun but he was being detrimental. I finally made him a character that worked (Kobold half troll useless but hard to kill.) for this person a Low thought character should work like fighter or sorcerer.
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You could build her a Kineticist, optimize it yourself and then prewrite out one or two attack options (I would use colored pencil or colored ink to differentiate them). They would literally say something like "Fire Blast: to hit = 1d20+6, damage on hit = 4d6" etc. That way when it's her turn she just picks one she likes and follows the instructions no thought required. Just set it up so that she doesn't receive burn somehow.
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There are lots of different types of player personalities; sounds like you have a Watcher on your hands.
We've had a lot of Watchers over the years, but they require a little different handling. My personal recommendation for a Watcher is for the group to take over the leveling and mechanical portion of character creation. Have the Watcher give out whatever guidelines they like for what they'd want their character to be, then the group helps build it. Simple options - especially passive, "always on" options - play very well (toughness, dodge, diehard, iron will, weapon focus, etc.) Odds are this player didn't make it past the class description and *that's* what appealed to them, rather than anything mechanically related to the class.
For a spellcaster, Sorcerers and Oracles are wonderful, and I'd even go so far as to print out or create spell card props that the player can physically handle that contains everything the player needs.
I completely aggree on that.
There are players who are more interested on the interpretative part of the game or on just having some mindless fun than in mechanics. I have a player in my group who after more than 5 years of regular play won't know how to use power attack (and all his characters take that feat). If a player won't compromise but you want him in the game the only solution is the GM taking control of mechanic issues and let the player just come and play
There are players who are more interested on the interpretative part of the game or on just having somemindlessfun than in mechanics. I have a player in my group who after more than 5 years of regular play won't know how to use power attack (and all his characters take that feat). If a player won't compromise but you want them in the game the only solution is the GM taking control of mechanic issues and let the player just come and play
FTFY. Not the case that fun = mindless. Some of us get screaming headaches trying to do rules evolutions no matter what system.
Makes it a real treat when one of the folks I game regularly with decides they want to try a GMing new system each month, with a new character, background, and setting.
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not to derail but if things like power attack trip you up a helpful trick is to prewrite your power attack as a separate attack/weapon on your sheet.
I do this for my wife's fighter, she loves playing but she has no desire to learn system mechanics, so I wrote an action economy flow chart for her so she knows what she can do each round and she has a variety of attack options neatly prewritten for her to choose from (using lunge, power attack, charge, disarm, regular attack w/o pwer attack, full attack, full attack with power attack, etc.)
It eats page space but it stopped us from having to instruct her every round and she only has to pick from her options.
There are lots of different types of player personalities; sounds like you have a Watcher on your hands.
We've had a lot of Watchers over the years, but they require a little different handling. My personal recommendation for a Watcher is for the group to take over the leveling and mechanical portion of character creation. Have the Watcher give out whatever guidelines they like for what they'd want their character to be, then the group helps build it. Simple options - especially passive, "always on" options - play very well (toughness, dodge, diehard, iron will, weapon focus, etc.) Odds are this player didn't make it past the class description and *that's* what appealed to them, rather than anything mechanically related to the class.
For a spellcaster, Sorcerers and Oracles are wonderful, and I'd even go so far as to print out or create spell card props that the player can physically handle that contains everything the player needs.
I completely aggree on that.
There are players who are more interested on the interpretative part of the game or on just having some mindless fun than in mechanics. I have a player in my group who after more than 5 years of regular play won't know how to use power attack (and all his characters take that feat).
I have a player who does that; he takes Power Attack, and then asks me what the bonuses/penalties are for him. That's why, every time before we begin a session, I give him a pop quiz so he understands how it works. It's (kind of) a running gag we have with our current table, and it's hilarious.
All you gotta do is say "[Player's Name], Power Attack, go!" And he should eventually get it right; if he gets it wrong, just tell him the mechanics, and eventually he should get it down in his memory.
After a few times, although he asks the question in confirmation, he does get it correct at the time when he asks, and I don't mind giving the clarification, but our GM does gripe when we, as players, don't know our characters, so I'm kind-of sort-of the go-to for character mechanics.
It's almost as funny as the time where two of our players made a monetary bet right before a session on whether the aforementioned player (who was a Magus at the time) would cast Shield or some other spell as his first spell of the day. Needless to say, that was perhaps the funniest session we've had to this day.
Also not to derail, but based on things like 'Toppling Spell' which only applies once per target regardless of how many missles hit, would there really be separate concentration checks for each missle, or one concentration check based on the total damage of all missiles?Magic Missile has its uses. For example, if I readied a Magic Missiles on an enemy casting a spell (because I don't want to burn a precious 3rd level Dispel Magic slot), I can use Magic Missile to hopefully disrupt their concentration, and they'd have to make several concentration checks (upwards of 5) or lose the spell.
That's a good question, perhaps something that is FAQ-worthy. Toppling Spell has its own rules, so I don't think it's an anecdotal example to apply, since its effects are from a binary result and not a vectoral result (i.e. it only cares if you hit the target, a la Yes/No, not how many times or for how much damage, as would be the case for a vectoral result).
Concentration checks, on the other hand, don't share that same identity. Relevant text from the PRD regarding Concentration:
If you take damage while trying to cast a spell, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + the damage taken + the level of the spell you're casting. If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between the time you started and the time you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).
If you are taking continuous damage, such as from an acid arrow or by standing in a lake of lava, half the damage is considered to take place while you are casting a spell. You must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the damage that the continuous source last dealt + the level of the spell you're casting. If the last damage dealt was the last damage that the effect could deal, then the damage is over and does not distract you.
With that being said, I'd rule it in that you are having 2 or more missiles firing at an enemy, each dealing their own set damage, and as such each triggering their own Concentration check. The character would have to make 5 separate checks, each having a DC = to 10 + missile damage + spell level. Of course, most casters will have Shield running, so the odds of this coming up are fairly slim.
It wouldn't be overpowered to let it function either way, but to be honest, I feel this would be a FAQ-worthy question, since there are other spells that would have similar issues (a la Scorching Ray).
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Theres a simple solution: Bard, if possible thundercaller archetype. Let she inspire courage while sleep, and if she wants to deal damage just use the same "spell" over and over again. All feats to extra perfomance to allow her do this the entire day.
Even if afk a permanent buff is usefull.
There are players who are more interested on the interpretative part of the game or on just having somemindlessfun than in mechanics. I have a player in my group who after more than 5 years of regular play won't know how to use power attack (and all his characters take that feat). If a player won't compromise but you want them in the game the only solution is the GM taking control of mechanic issues and let the player just come and playFTFY. Not the case that fun = mindless. Some of us get screaming headaches trying to do rules evolutions no matter what system.
Makes it a real treat when one of the folks I game regularly with decides they want to try a GMing new system each month, with a new character, background, and setting.
Never wanted to imply that people who doesn't feel the need to have extensive knowledge of the mechanics only wants to have mindless fun. Some do, some don't. All of us want to have fun, and we all have fun in different ways. Nothing wrong with that.
But if a player doesn't have the same level of commitment or of understanding of mechanics than the other players he clearly needs some help to play at the same level as other players so he doesn't feel like he's not a useful part of the team.I've had these kind of players and many of them would rather play a pregen character with simple mechanics and an interesting story developed by the GM rather than developing their own character.