Help me make an Alchemist!

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

Hello friends

So this character is gonna be super none optimal and some popular choices are not being made, so yeah if that bothers you I apologize.

So basically I've made a tone of 3/4 characters and full casters before and I want to make something slightly different, I want to make a character that has one or more strong mental stats and no particularly stand out physical stats (nothing above 14) and who is not a caster.

I'm not particularly interested in conventional weapons, so longbow fall back builds are off the table.

I also am not interested in a Tumor familiar because I find the concept frankly so disgusting it makes my skin crawl xD

I want to focus on the the bombs specifically as they seem nifty and given that they hit touch AC they enable to low physical stats approach.

With that in mind I think I'm probably gonna be a gnome, for the extra half a bomb for favored class although I'm more than happy to look at other races if you clever guys know another way of facilitating a bomb based build I am aware already of Alchemists fire and Acid which seem helpful in facilitating this sort of build in the early levels.

Furthermore if any of you know some kewl archetypes for trading away Mutagens or tricks to allow me to give them to my buddies that would be kewl.

As for discoveries and and feats
So far there aren't any obvious feats to me other than Extra discovery other than that I'm a bit lost, for discoveries

I'm a bit overwhelmed, Infusion seems like possibly my level 2 or 3 discovery, so I can get more mileage out of my extracts for buffing my buddies and stuff :) other than that many many options bit much to read frost stood out to me as kewl.

Extracts have looked overwhelming I'm mostly looking for utility or ally buffing here.

TL/DR
I don't know what the f@++ the I'm doing help me.

Acid bomb seems god to get around most common resistances at low level

EDIT: should this guy ever get played he would be level 6 with a 25 point buy
so yah

[0o0o0 O 0o0o0]

25 point Gnome stats for bomber Alchemist, no physical above 14:

STR: 10 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 17 (+1) WIS: 12 CHA: 13

Wis is 12 because of poor Will save, Cha above 11 for Gnome racial SLAs.

Tough enough, pretty adequate. 4th level point go to Int

Or

STR: 8 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 18 (+1) WIS: 12 CHA: 11

Because at level 6 you can afford a Handy Haversack.

[Dragonchess Player]

Don't forget the gnome alternate racial trait Pyromaniac (treated as one level higher for fire bomb damage*, alters SLAs to dancing lights, flare, prestidigitation, and produce flame; replaces gnome magic and illusion resistance) and remember to select Craft (Alchemy) with Obsessive to make it easier to craft alchemical substances.

For ally buffing, the Infusion discovery is the go-to option. Hand out "potions" of buffs/cures to your allies at the start of the day and save your own action economy.

As an alternative to grenadier, the preservationist archetype replaces poison use, poison resistance +4 and +6, poison immunity, persistent mutagen, and the 18th level discovery for adding summon nature's ally "spells" to the formulae list; which can benefit from Moonlight Summons, Starlight Summons, and Sunlight Summons. Also, "If the preservationist has the infusion discovery, another character can use the infused specimen. The Augment Summoning feat can be applied to these specimens." The Planar Preservationist feat also adds the equivalent summon monster "spells" and the Bottled Ooze discovery allows "summoning" of oozes.

*- fire bombs do 4d6 at 6th level, other bombs do 3d6

[Scott Wilhelm]

There are a couple of ways to use Alchemist that excite me. One is to use a few levels in Alchemist to augment a Grappling character. A Tentacle gives you a +4 on Grapple Checks, and a King Crab Tumor (!) Familiar gives you a +2. Also, if your Familiar has the Protector Archetype, at level 5, it will give you Shield Other, so that half the damage you suffer will be suffered by the Familiar instead, and since it's a disgusting Tumor, it will have Fast Healing 5. It's the fastest way I know of to raise your Grapple Mod over the course of 4 levels.

But you don't want that.

[Scott Wilhelm]

My favorite Extract in general is Alchemal Allocation. It lets you use any potion without consuming it, and almost any spell of any class from levels 1-3 can be made into a Potion. It has huge potential.

Take a look at the Potion Glutton Feat. It will let you drink any Potable as a Swift Action. Potable is not, as far as I know, a Game Term, but merely an English Language work (French, too). It means what it means in English and French: drinkable. You drink Extracts and Mutagens.

With the exception of Potions, Alchemists are not supposed to be able to make Magic Items, but they can take Master Craftsman like everybody else, and through that take Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I multiclass extensively in almost all my character builds, but I'd be tempted to be a pure Alchemist if I were a Grenadier.

I'd use a longbow.

A level 2 Genadier can put an alchemal weapon into a piece of ammunition and do alchemal damage on top of regular damage.

Since you don't want to use a Longbow, how about use a Gun? Be a Goblin and take Goblin Gunslinger so you can use big guns. Take Burn! Burn! Burn! and you can do an extra 1d4 fire damage with each shot. Take Explosive Missile so you can add your Bombs to your bullets. Then you can take feats like Deadly Aim and Reckless Shot and do extra damage with your bullets that stack on top of your Bomb Damage.

At higher levels, take Fast Bombs, which sadly won't stack with Explosive Missile and the rest, but will be a great way to deliver pain.

Few charaters are more fun to play than an Goblin Alchemist except maybe for a Gunslinging Goblin Alchemist.

[avr]

If you really want to give your mutagens away the visionary researcher archetype does exactly that.

While a pyromaniac gnome is a solid choice, note that they're not the only race to get +1/2 bomb/day as a favored class bonus. Hobgoblins and kobolds can too.

As far as feats go don't forget the basics for missile weapons - point blank shot and precise shot. Far shot may also be useful if you don't get the explosive missile discovery. Concentrated splash may be still good at level 6, though you'd want to retrain it soon.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

@OoOoO O OoOoO sorry if thats wrong

I agree with you on the second one since I'll get to buy a bag, I also kind of like the idea of having an assortment of random crap to through at things once we've won the fight and are cleaning up, since I've got throw anything already.

@Dragonchess Player Does Pyromaniac work with bombs? I kind of assumed that it didn't can't say why it makes perfect sense.

As for the buffing, any suggestions for good buffs? I had a cursory glance at the list but couldn't see any obvious winners.

As for the preservationist stuff, on the one hand the shiny slightly magical summons is mildly kewl on the other hand, micromanaging summons is always a bit taxing I'll have a thing about it, it certainly deals with the old mutagen issue, but then again, I'd be tempted to sink a lot into the summoning and I don't want to make a summoner its a bit too close to just being a generic caster again.

@Scott Willhelm

on AA, it seems kewl but again, I don't really think I'll be self buffing that much so how many potions am I gonna be consuming, it also seems pretty hefty in terms of action economy. Potion Glutton does help that but again my plan was mostly to give out my buffs to others.

I'm not opposed to a multiclass but I prefer not to unless I think it 1) is necessary to a large degree 2) fits the character concept. As such a gun does sound quite fun, but not actually as fun as throwing bombs.

[SmiloDan]

The Cognigen option might work for your mutagens too.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

@Avr I initially shied away from Kobolds and Hobs because the idea I had for the character was supposed to be quite jovial and eccentric but I suppose they could be an exception to their races usual temperament, but Kobolds ability scores are horrible so probably leave them alone.

General plea to anyone knowledgeable as to particularly useful bomb discoveries besides frost or whatever its called since that seems really strong for first level.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

Wings seem like a fun discovery for bombers.

EDIT: also whats a cognigon?

[MrCharisma]

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Wings seem like a fun discovery for bombers.

EDIT: also whats a cognigon?

COGNATOGEN

Alchemist Discoveries and their descriptions can be found HERE or HERE.

[Dragonchess Player]

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

@Dragonchess Player Does Pyromaniac work with bombs? I kind of assumed that it didn't can't say why it makes perfect sense.

"Gnomes with this racial trait are treated as one level higher when casting spells with the fire descriptor, using granted powers of the Fire domain, using the bloodline powers of the fire elemental bloodline or the revelations of the oracle's flame mystery, and determining the damage of alchemist bombs that deal fire damage..."

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

As for the buffing, any suggestions for good buffs? I had a cursory glance at the list but couldn't see any obvious winners.

Enlarge person, shield (can be made into an infused extract, even though it can't be made into a potion), barkskin, blur, and resist energy are all good buffs. Especially since infused extracts use the alchemist's level to determine effect/duration, not the minimum CL a normal potion would use.

[avr]

Useful bomb discoveries: Stink bomb and its prereq Smoke bomb. If you think you're likely to get caught in melee, Breath weapon bomb. Tanglefoot bomb isn't bad for avoiding getting caught in melee. When you hit 8th level Fast bombs is essential for a bomber.

A hobgoblin's probably better for a more physical alchemist, true.

For buffs remember that infused extracts that you give away can actually be personal range spells. Long arm is popular, or Monkey fish, or Heightened Awareness.

[SmiloDan]

Also, there is a spell that eliminates splash damage and in turn allows you to double your Intelligence modifier to bomb damage. Some kind of admixture? I forget what it's called, but I've seen it in action.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

Necroing? sort of who knows.

Anyway I got some time to put together a basic idea of the character, he is a Hobgoblin

The character would be starting at level 6 (replacement if a certain other Char died) but I've planned him quite a bit higher than that.

Looking for suggestions to altering basically anything I've picked with a couple exceptions which I will note next to the pick.

Name: Ron
Class: Alchemist, Grenadier
Race: Hobgoblin
Stats:
Str: 10
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 14 (1 at level 4)
Cha: 10
(25 point buy, you'll recall I didn't want any physicals higher than 14, but I just ended up with a lot more points than I needed hence the 15 xD)
Feats
1) Throw Anything
1) Point Blank Shot
3) Precise Shot
5) Extra Discovery
7) Extra Discovery
9) Extra Discovery
11) Extra Discovery
13)
15)
17)
19)

Discovery
2) Infusion
2) Precise Bomb
4) Frost Bomb
5) Cognatogen
6) Wings (I know I could take fly but growing wings is kewl >.>)
7) Grease Bomb
8) Smoke bomb (took it to get incendiary)
9) Blinding Bomb
10) Holy Bomb
11) Confusion Bomb
12) Force Bomb
14) Sticky Bomb (for the last three I was a bit lost as to what to choose)
16) Incendiary Cloud
18) Madness Bomb
20, Grand Discovery) Philosophers stone

I'll put the spells I'd be starting with in spoilers to prevent the super long text

Spoiler:

Level 1
1) Enlarge Person
1) Shield
1) Reduce Person
1) True Strike
1) Cure Light Wounds
1) Endure Elements
2) Touch of the seas
2) Long Arm
3) Targeted Bomb Admixture
3) Invisibility Alarm
Level 2
4) Restoration, Lesser
4) Resist Energy
5) Invisibility
5) Vomit Swarm
6) Barkskin
6) Alter Self

I would learn more as I got chance to but again the basic idea would be giving out buffs to people for them to use at the start of the day.

[MrCharisma]

I'd recommend adding FAST BOMBS in there somewhere (preferably at level 8). You won't want to use it all the time or you'll run out of bombs too quickly, but sometimes you absolutely need to kill every mother-hubbard in the room (also if you look at the FAQ on the right side of the page I linked it gives you some feat ideas if you really want to go nova).

EDIT: Also that's not a necro, don't worry. This is a forum not chat service. You're allowed to take a little while to get back to people.

[0o0o0 O 0o0o0]

Hobgoblins can also take +2 Craft Alchemy and Engineering in place of Sneaky.

They have racial access to a feat called Deafening Explosion which reduces the damage by 1d6 replaced with a defeaning debuff (20% caster failure for example). Most bombs are only about debuff stacking at higher levels so it is good, also the Hobgoblin grenadier build has plenty of spare feats. Importantly, it stacks with several other bomb attributes.

Don't forget the favoured class bonus for Hobgoblins of 1/2 an extra bomb. You won't need it so much at higher levels, but your con is okay for HP anyway and your Int is excellent for skills.

My goodness, Hobgoblins make superb Alchemists.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

MrCharisma wrote:

I'd recommend adding FAST BOMBS in there somewhere (preferably at level 8). You won't want to use it all the time or you'll run out of bombs too quickly, but sometimes you absolutely need to kill every mother-hubbard in the room (also if you look at the FAQ on the right side of the page I linked it gives you some feat ideas if you really want to go nova).

EDIT: Also that's not a necro, don't worry. This is a forum not chat service. You're allowed to take a little while to get back to people.

I KNEW I'D FORGOTTEN SOMETHING!! xD lol I intended to put fast bombs where Confusion bombs is and bump them all up one I don't want to take it earlier because Bombs will be this characters main/only resource for actually directly effecting combat so at level 8 when I'm not all to into noving.

0o0o0 O 0o0o0 wrote:

Hobgoblins can also take +2 Craft Alchemy and Engineering in place of Sneaky.

I plan to :)

Quote:

They have racial access to a feat called Deafening Explosion which reduces the damage by 1d6 replaced with a defeaning debuff (20% caster failure for example). Most bombs are only about debuff stacking at higher levels so it is good, also the Hobgoblin grenadier build has plenty of spare feats. Importantly, it stacks with several other bomb attributes.

Don't forget the favoured class bonus for Hobgoblins of 1/2 an extra bomb. You won't need it so much at higher levels, but your con is okay for HP anyway and your Int is excellent for skills.

My goodness, Hobgoblins make superb Alchemists.

Deafening is a good shout, and as you can see I have many free feats xD

don't worry about the Favored class bonus being forgotten its what attracted me to the race, they do make great alchemists don't they. XD

[Scott Wilhelm]

I think you should consider Dispelling Bomb. The ability to use Fast Bombs to spam a Wizard with Dispelling Debuffed, seems particular to Alchemists, and it seems like something worth considering.

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

on AA, it seems kewl but again, I don't really think I'll be self buffing that much so how many potions am I gonna be consuming, it also seems pretty hefty in terms of action economy. Potion Glutton does help that but again my plan was mostly to give out my buffs to others.

If you take Infusion, you can have others drink your Infusion of Alchemal Allocation so that they can use any potions they have without actually consuming them.

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

I KNEW I'D FORGOTTEN SOMETHING!! xD lol I intended to put fast bombs

That's the big thing I saw. Fast Bombs lets you throw Bombs at short range, but, well, fast. Explosive Missile lets you shoot bombs at long range, and I might as well add Seige Bombs. Demolition Bombs seems like a worthwhile one to take.

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Smoke bomb (took it to get incendiary)

9) Blinding Bomb

Here's a thought. You are thinking of using your Bombs to blanket your opponents in burning, blinding smoke. What then? Will your allies enter your smoke clouds, or will they hang back and shoot into the clouds? Either way, your targets will have Concealment. There is a Rogue Talent that lets you see through Concealment. Anyone in your party will be able to function in a Fog or a Blinding Fog with some countermeasures such as Blindfighting and the Scent Ability. And you can grant your allies Scent with an Alter Self Infusion. There is an Extract that gives you the equivalent of Blindsight: Echolocation.

There is an Alchemal Item, Glowing Dye, that makes it easier to spot someone with Concealment. And you can put Glowing Dye in a Marker Dye Arrow. So, use Explosive Missile to put Blinding or Incendiarty Bombs onto a Marker Dye Arrow filled with Glowing Dye, then shoot them as a Ranged Touch Attack. They are engulfed in burning or Blinding fog, but they are glowing, so your whole party can still easily spot and shoot him.

[Helpful Harry]

If you're using traits, this one will help with damage

Quote:

Focused Burn: You know the secret of making punishing fire bombs. Any bombs you have that deal fire damage deal 1 additional point of fire damage on a direct hit per 2d6 of fire damage normally dealt (minimum 1 point). This additional damage does not apply to the bomb's splash damage.

while this one will help with debuffs

Quote:

Meticulous Concoction: Your meticulous carefulness makes your bombs and extracts more potent. Once per day, you can either add a +2 trait bonus to the save DC for one bomb you throw or extend the duration of one extract you imbibe by 2 rounds. Extracts with an instantaneous duration are not affected by this trait.

.

They are both Magic traits, unfortunately, so it's one or the other.