Got a friend who want to try the VMC rules.
We were thinking that a base class with lots of bonus feats would be the best choice since you're going to give up half your regular feats.
Fighter obviously has the most bonus feats. You can obviously make a decent 2HW power attack fighter with just the bonus combat feats. Yet monk, ranger, wizard, rogue, arcanist, and warpriest also have a fair number of them.
Then you need to look at which VMC options actually give you something worth having.
The magus VMC gives the arcane pool which seem pretty decent.
Oracle gives the curse and a couple of revelations. Lots of choices there.
The summoner VMC gives a little bit of summoning and a low power eidolon. Probably ok for a mount or scout eidolon.
Fighter, barbarian, and sorcerer VMC seem pretty worthless to me. Am I missing something.
So, what have you tried (or seen someone else try)? What worked? What didn't? Any builds you've been cogitating on?
VMC summoner sucks. Not only is the eidolon weak it reads like you only get it for a round per level, useless for scouting or as a mount. The summon monster is not going to be terribly useful either.
The oracle VMC is definitely something you can build on though. Whether it's single-classed entry to eldritch knight, a fighter wanting to improve their defences, a rogue wanting some stealthy magic or a caster wanting odd buffs to their magic, there's something there for many types.
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There are two guides (#1, #2) for VMC.
Monk has very specific bonus feats and normally wants to spend his feats on a style chain.
Avenger Vigilante gets even more bonus feats then a fighter, so that one should be considered, too.
The extremest cases of where VMC is beneficial that I've found are Agathiel Vigilante with VMC Barbarian (there is basically only one feat you need, and you could pick up even that one with a talent), and Crossbowman Fighter with VMC Rogue (because the Overwatch Style chain works really well together with the archetypes Improved Deadshot ability to ensure Sneak Attacks).
Rangers and Slayers also get a good number of bonus feats (or access to them).
Cavalier's great.
Order gives you some class skills, and some of the order abilities are fantastic. I'm writing a fighter guide right now, and Order of the Stars combined with Believer's Hands gives you full LoH and challenge makes up for not taking weapon specialization and getting a few feats free.
Having a lot of feats to make up for VMC is fine, but I think it's even better to look at classes that don't really need feats. For example a blaster sorcerer may be able to give up 5 feats and still function pretty well, a barbarian really only ever needs power attack (slight exaggeration intentional).
Magus with VMC wizard (Evocation/Admixture) is a fairly strong choice, gaining a familiar (essentially getting a bonus magus arcana instead of a feat) at 3rd level, the 1st level school powers (Intense Spells and Versatile Evocation are great for a magus, increasing damage and allowing "on the fly" changing of energy type for ray of frost, shocking grasp, etc.) at 7th level, an at-will sorcerer/wizard cantrip (probably one that is not on the magus list, like touch of fatigue) at 11th, and an arcane discovery (True Name is probably the "best" option) at 15th level.
VMC druid grants an animal companion at 7th level (at character level -4, initially; increasing to full character level at 11th level), which allows some interesting combinations: summoner with VMC druid and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane bloodline) has a full powered eidolon, an animal companion (full powered at 11th level), and a familiar (at level -2).
VMC paladin is useful for any LG character with an anti-undead, combat, and/or healing focus and a decent Cha.
VMC rogue can allow any character (even a fighter, assuming lore warden or taking Combat Expertise to qualify for Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Trip, etc.) to act as the party "locks and traps" specialist (dwarf is probably the best race, because of the Wis bonus and Stonecunning), as well as gaining a few Sneak Attack dice, evasion, and uncanny dodge.
VMC sorcerer (Abyssal bloodline) can be a way to supercharge a character's Str at very high level (especially if combined with dragon disciple), although it may be more efficient to take the Skill Focus, Eldritch Heritage, and Improved Eldritch Heritage feats if the character has sufficient Cha.
VMC summoner sucks. Not only is the eidolon weak it reads like you only get it for a round per level, useless for scouting or as a mount...
Are you sure about that?
I thought that just meant you couldn't summon any monsters while you have your eidolon out like a normal summoner.
VMC summoner sucks. Not only is the eidolon weak it reads like you only get it for a round per level, useless for scouting or as a mount...Are you sure about that?
I thought that just meant you couldn't summon any monsters while you have your eidolon out like a normal summoner.
Nope, based on my reading, it's only temporary like the summon monsters.
Needless to say, the problem with a lot of VMCs is that they are underpowered for what you're getting, or are simply broken and don't work the way people want them to.
Magus VMC is a prime example, since Spellstrike only works well with single attacks, whereas optimization requires the ability to full attack, which Spell Combat allows (but Spellstrike doesn't). Whereas Barbarian VMC is an example of a good VMC, since you're getting solid abilities that are well worth the price of admission (Rage, Rage Powers, DR, and so on).
i just wish vmc wasn't all or nothing deal like if there was an ability you didn't want/didn't fit the character concept you just wouldn't have to pay the feat to gain said feature. much like how i dislike archetypes from being all or nothing
Then you're left with people making threads about why class features, most importantly, the class-defining ones, aren't simply Feats that any character can take, and then the seams break down, and you're left grasping at trying to put the frayed books of Pathfinder back together, but realizing that, since you've gazed into the infinity, it's already gazed back at you, and-
Excuse me. I was just about to go on a C'Thulian rant.
What I meant to say, was "It's a balance thing."
Druid VMC barbarian for raging bears, trees etc
Druid VMC barbarian for raging bears, trees etc
I did this for a Caster/Summoning Druid who had a 20 Wisdom and only had 14 Strength, with a level dip in UCMonk. We also were forced to use the UCBarbarian Rage effects (which weren't bad).
When I was able to cut down a CR 9 creature in half at 7th level in a single full attack action, with all of my stuff going (Power Attack, Rage, Pounce), I could only imagine if I was more optimized for melee combat with the 20 Strength.
Even with the base stuff and Wild Shape, I was doing 1D6/1D8 + 5 Strength + 4 Power Attack + 2 Rage + 1 Enhancement, per attack, and when Wild Shaped into a Tiger (GM wouldn't allow Dire for whatever reason), getting 5 attacks, all at full BAB...yeah, nothing is going to last very long.
Not to mention, summoning 2 similar creatures that can do an identical attack pattern in the round prior, it's ridiculous.
Druid VMC barbarian for raging bears, trees etcI did this for a Caster/Summoning Druid who had a 20 Wisdom and only had 14 Strength, with a level dip in UCMonk. We also were forced to use the UCBarbarian Rage effects (which weren't bad).
When I was able to cut down a CR 9 creature in half at 7th level in a single full attack action, with all of my stuff going (Power Attack, Rage, Pounce), I could only imagine if I was more optimized for melee combat with the 20 Strength.
Even with the base stuff and Wild Shape, I was doing 1D6/1D8 + 5 Strength + 4 Power Attack + 2 Rage + 1 Enhancement, per attack, and when Wild Shaped into a Tiger (GM wouldn't allow Dire for whatever reason), getting 5 attacks, all at full BAB...yeah, nothing is going to last very long.
Not to mention, summoning 2 similar creatures that can do an identical attack pattern in the round prior, it's ridiculous.
Yeah. This is how the other VMC options should work, but for the most part they don't. Besides barbarian, sorcerer, wizard, alchemist, cavalier and Oracle the VMC options run the gamut from situational to sucky
Yeah. This is how the other VMC options should work, but for the most part they don't. Besides barbarian, sorcerer, wizard, alchemist, cavalier and Oracle the VMC options run the gamut from situational to suckyDruid VMC barbarian for raging bears, trees etcI did this for a Caster/Summoning Druid who had a 20 Wisdom and only had 14 Strength, with a level dip in UCMonk. We also were forced to use the UCBarbarian Rage effects (which weren't bad).
When I was able to cut down a CR 9 creature in half at 7th level in a single full attack action, with all of my stuff going (Power Attack, Rage, Pounce), I could only imagine if I was more optimized for melee combat with the 20 Strength.
Even with the base stuff and Wild Shape, I was doing 1D6/1D8 + 5 Strength + 4 Power Attack + 2 Rage + 1 Enhancement, per attack, and when Wild Shaped into a Tiger (GM wouldn't allow Dire for whatever reason), getting 5 attacks, all at full BAB...yeah, nothing is going to last very long.
Not to mention, summoning 2 similar creatures that can do an identical attack pattern in the round prior, it's ridiculous.
Out of all the ones you listed, Barbarian and Oracle are perhaps the only ones that can be good, and even Oracle is extremely niche, since a lot of revelation options and ability scalings are garbage. Not to mention, dealing with a stupid curse can make or break certain builds.
I just think that if you're going to be giving up half your feats, the abilities better be doing some pretty awesome stuff; most of the time, you're better off keeping the feats, because you'll be too feat starved to fulfill the other aspects your character needs to accomplish.
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4th level Alchemist, VMC Barbarian can increase their Strength by +12.
To quote myself from another thread
Elemental Ascetic works great with variant multiclass Monk. Increased unarmed damage, evasion, Ki pool (which lets you get an extra attack while using flurry), and a +3 stackable dodge bonus. Level one may be a little harsh but it picks up quickly.
Also, don't forget you get an effective higher base attack when using flurry.
Edit: Just wanted to note that Elemental Ascetic was a Kineticist archetype.
What might be neat is cram as many classes as you could onto one character. What could you make taking one class, using an archetype that models another class, add on VMC and take feats that duplicate another class feature?
Out of all the ones you listed, Barbarian and Oracle are perhaps the only ones that can be good.Yeah. This is how the other VMC options should work, but for the most part they don't. Besides barbarian, sorcerer, wizard, alchemist, cavalier and Oracle the VMC options run the gamut from situational to suckyDruid VMC barbarian for raging bears, trees etcI did this for a Caster/Summoning Druid who had a 20 Wisdom and only had 14 Strength, with a level dip in UCMonk. We also were forced to use the UCBarbarian Rage effects (which weren't bad).
When I was able to cut down a CR 9 creature in half at 7th level in a single full attack action, with all of my stuff going (Power Attack, Rage, Pounce), I could only imagine if I was more optimized for melee combat with the 20 Strength.
Even with the base stuff and Wild Shape, I was doing 1D6/1D8 + 5 Strength + 4 Power Attack + 2 Rage + 1 Enhancement, per attack, and when Wild Shaped into a Tiger (GM wouldn't allow Dire for whatever reason), getting 5 attacks, all at full BAB...yeah, nothing is going to last very long.
Not to mention, summoning 2 similar creatures that can do an identical attack pattern in the round prior, it's ridiculous.
Wholeheartedly disagree.
Teleportation school wizard is incredible good
There are some strong sorcerer bloodlines that have synergy with meLee builds (ghoul sorcerer/natural weapons).
A lot of good things have been said about the othe ones, although in fairness I haven't looked at them in depth personally.
Was deciding on the basics of making a build based off of this guide and looked at wizard VMC. It seems like it could work ok with a number of builds if you choose options to fit the class(not many for non-casters but there are some).
The abilities you get function at your class level (a number of the other VMC's do not) so while you get them late you can get some nice stuff. Transmutation looked like a good option for a little self buffing and rounding off possible weaknesses in a build. Also the discovery at 15 means you could get some of the higher ones like time stutter or true name.