most things no. if it says bards increase inspire courage increase by 4 levels it wont work for any class that also gets inspire courage like a bard
The Cleric(Evangelist) gets Sermonic Performance which states "This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory) as the evangelist’s performance skill."
If the item gives +4 level effect to "Bardic Performance", then it also works for Sermonic Performance.
You need to carefully read the wording on the alternate feature. Often they have that equivalency language in it.
/cevah
The Cleric(Evangelist) gets Sermonic Performance which states "This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory) as the evangelist’s performance skill."
If the item gives +4 level effect to "Bardic Performance", then it also works for Sermonic Performance.
You need to carefully read the wording on the alternate feature. Often they have that equivalency language in it.
/cevah
The issue is the Item says, Increases a bards level for inspire courage by 4. A cleric is not a bard, even with that archetype.
alternate classes; ninja, samurai, and anti-paladin; are in a very weird spot right now. We have no rules that say they are so they aren't. The problem was that Jason said they were just archetypes, which meant they were. But now after ACG the PDT say that alternate classes aren't archetypes and are their own class. That makes things all crazy and everything unclear now about alternate classes.
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They only stated relation the ninja class has to the rogue is that you can't multi-class them (which is about the only difference between hybrid and alternate classes).
This is just a specific case of the general rule that you can't multi-class any class with itself / its own archetypes (including alternate classes).
Since the Ninja class IS the Rogue class they cannot be multiclassed... but they can both use most Rogue items... because they are both Rogues. The only exception is if an archetype / alternate class replaces a particular class ability required by the item.
Which is really where the anti-paladin dispute which began this comes in... are the anti-paladin abilities 'replacements' of the paladin abilities or just 'evil versions' of the same ability?
The antipaladin is an alternate class. Making use of and altering numerous facets of the paladin core class, this villainous warrior can't truly be considered a new character class by its own right. By the changes made here, though, the details and tones of the paladin class are shifted in a completely opposite direction and captures an entirely different fantasy theme, without needlessly designing an entire new class. While a redesign of sorts, this alternate class can be used just as any of the other base classes found in the first part of this chapter.
It looks like the rules for the other alternate classes were meant to be introduced in the antipaladin description. The only really questionable thing is when it refers to other "base classes". Which makes it sound like all alternate classes are also base classes.
The most recent clarification we have is that Ninja class ISN'T a rogue. So we're not sure WHAT alternate classes actually are or if they get special permission to use stuff for the class they can't multi-class with.
because hybrid classes are very different from alternate classes hybrids are 2 separate classes coming together to make 1 new class alternate classes are just a big archetype like thing to the main class. hybrid classes and alternate classes are fundamentally differentthat is for hybrid classes not alternate classesAnd where does any rule state that it should be any different for alternate classes?
Hybrid classes are not two classes coming together. They are a new set of classes whose design elements are drawn from two classes, but are not those classes. That's why Hunters, despite being a Druid/Ranger fusion are not Druids, and they don't get the Druidic language, nor wildshsape.
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Since the Ninja class IS the Rogue class they cannot be multiclassed... but they can both use most Rogue items... because they are both Rogues. The only exception is if an archetype / alternate class replaces a particular class ability required by the item.This is not what my copy of Ultimate Combat says.
It IS what mine says;
"The ninja, by contrast, is an alternate class version of the rogue, one whose mystical powers augment keenly honed reflexes to make the ninja a deadly spy and assassin."
"An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class - a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa."
The Ninja is a version of the Rogue. It operates exactly as the Rogue.
Base class is the name given to summoner, alchemist, oracle ... classes that came after core and before ACG.
So it's not saying it operates exactly as a rogue, but exactly as a base class which are the classes not in core, ACG, or occult.
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Base class is the name given to summoner, alchemist, oracle ... classes that came after core and before ACG.
Yes, I'm familiar with the usage.
However, I think it needs to be considered concurrently with the statement that the ninja is a "version of the rogue". WHY can a character not have levels in both an alternate class and its associated class? It seems clear to me that this is because the alternate class is a "version of" the associated class... you can't multi-class Rogue and Rogue. Ninja doesn't just operate as any class, but specifically as a rogue.
You're welcome to feel that way. But by the current official clarification we have you're incorrect. A ninja is no more a rogue than a slayer is.
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You're welcome to feel that way. But by the current official clarification we have you're incorrect. A ninja is no more a rogue than a slayer is.
I know there was a change to some of the text, but my recollection was that it was more of a 'vague-ification' than a "clarification". If you believe otherwise... well then what IS this 'clarifying' text?
In contrast to... whatever, the PDF does still say that they are a "version of the rogue". Hard to see how that is not in some way a rogue... and they are certainly more so than slayers. You can multi-class rogue and slayer. You cannot multi-class rogue and ninja... because ninjas are a "version of the rogue".
You cannot multi-class rogue and ninja because the rules say you can't and that is the only reason why you can't. Ninja is it's own class, it is not a rogue. Just like a slayer is not a rogue. Being able to multi-class or not with rogue has nothing to do with anything except multi-classing.
From Ultimate Combat, "The ninja is an alternate class for the rogue core class."
It says "for", meaning that the ninja is still a rogue, because if it weren't, it couldn't be "for" the rogue class. Otherwise, it would be "of" or "based on" the rogue class.
James Jacobs had this to say:
"Alternate classes like the antipaladin, ninja, and samurai ARE essentially archetypes. They're just archetypes for which we went through and gave you the full level advancement chart for. And artwork too! So as long as they didn't give up a class feature that is a requirement for a feat or whatever... yup... they still can take that feat/trait/thing."
Yeah yeah, and here's Jason Bulmahn Lead Designer saying they are archetypes too.
But that doesn't matter to the new official PDT stance is that they aren't archetypes. Since they aren't archetypes and nothing in the rules say they can take rogue things then they can't. But since they used to be archetypes and allowed to take rogue things there's chance that we'll get a clarifying FAQ that'll clear up just how alternate classes work.
He'd like a FAQ to clarify that they could.
That just says that ninja isn't an archetype. We never said it was an archetype. Just that it was like an archetype. But it is an alternate classs for the rogue. And the ninja says it is for the rogue. So a ninja must still be a rogue.
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But that doesn't matter to the new official PDT stance is that they aren't archetypes. Since they aren't archetypes and nothing in the rules say they can take rogue things then they can't.
Which... is the exact opposite of what the post you linked actually says;
"Also, again, alternate classes being unable to take other alternate classes of the same base class does not mean they can't take FCB or archetypes."
There was a ruling that you cannot combine an alternate class with ANOTHER alternate class of the same source class. Which basically just means... you can't have an Unchained Rogue (alternate rogue) that is also a Ninja (alternate rogue).
That sole restriction does not require anything else to change.
There is still text saying that alternate class characters are members of their source class.
They still can't multi-class with the source class.
They can still take archetypes/options of the source class.
They can still take FCBs of the source class.
In short, they still ARE the source class. Essentially, alternate classes have finally been given a unique definition... they are like archetypes, except that you can't combine two alternate classes on the same character.
Show where it says they are members of their source class. Show where it says they can take archetypes for their source class. Show where it says they can take FCB of their source class.
They aren't their source class. They are a new class, to be treated as a base class, that can't multiclass with their source class.
"And on a personal note, I'd like there to eventually be a FAQ, and in it, I'd like us to say that alternate classes can use those abilities."
He's saying here that he'd like a FAQ to allow alternate classes to use those abilities. Thus they don't currently say that they can.
"And on a personal note, I'd like there to eventually be a FAQ, and in it, I'd like us to say that alternate classes can use those abilities."
He's saying here that he'd like a FAQ to allow alternate classes to use those abilities. Thus they don't currently say that they can.
I think he's just saying it's not clearly spelt out and so needs a FAQ. He never actually said it didn't work like that already.
And he never actually said it did work like that already.
And he never actually said it did work like that already.
No, but we have those other dev posts to that effect.