- role playing out most dialogs so my diplomacy didn't matterWow. In my experience any GM worth their salt still has you roll Diplomacy in conjunction with role playing out the conversation.hmph! I wish!
There was a trial I was to speak at (don't remember my stats now but +25 Diplomacy, +20 Perform oratory, cha 16 etc) and I even wrote my characters speech. I rolled it, got a 18 something, added surge, delivered the speech.
NPC with better skills that you stands up after you, your speech is forgotten, the trial goes the other way... and that's how you deal with Diplomacy ... *grumbles*
Skills break down at high values - someone with a +20 diplomacy should be a world renown peace negotiator, someone with a +20 to any skill should be the best in the world at what they do - DC's and skill checks break down at higher levels - even at lower levels if you play to bump skills up.
The entire skill system could use a rework that makes it scale and rewards skill based characters. That's a conversation for a different thread.
This topic disappoints me - I guess I was hoping that people would have good ideas on how to build challenges that are fun and not railroadish for players that hyper specialize - it seems to be generally a 'my GM did this to me when I could never fail' thread...
Which is cathartic I guess but not very helpful (as the thread title suggests the entire conversation might have been.
- role playing out most dialogs so my diplomacy didn't matterWow. In my experience any GM worth their salt still has you roll Diplomacy in conjunction with role playing out the conversation.hmph! I wish!
There was a trial I was to speak at (don't remember my stats now but +25 Diplomacy, +20 Perform oratory, cha 16 etc) and I even wrote my characters speech. I rolled it, got a 18 something, added surge, delivered the speech.
NPC with better skills that you stands up after you, your speech is forgotten, the trial goes the other way... and that's how you deal with Diplomacy ... *grumbles*
Skills break down at high values - someone with a +20 diplomacy should be a world renown peace negotiator, someone with a +20 to any skill should be the best in the world at what they do - DC's and skill checks break down at higher levels - even at lower levels if you play to bump skills up.
The entire skill system could use a rework that makes it scale and rewards skill based characters. That's a conversation for a different thread.
This topic disappoints me - I guess I was hoping that people would have good ideas on how to build challenges that are fun and not railroadish for players that hyper specialize - it seems to be generally a 'my GM did this to me when I could never fail' thread...
Which is cathartic I guess but not very helpful (as the thread title suggests the entire conversation might have been.
Ooops! Appologies for going off topic.
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This topic disappoints me - I guess I was hoping that people would have good ideas on how to build challenges that are fun and not railroadish for players that hyper specialize - it seems to be generally a 'my GM did this to me when I could never fail' thread...
I think it's fundamentally an issue of incompatible expectations.
Some people (many from the GM chair) assume:
- No one tactic, spell, feat, attack should be effective in every situation and nothing should be foolproof.
- Characters should have to adjust tactics corresponding to the situation and the antagonists.
- Fights that are ended by the application of the Urtechnique aren't really fun or interesting.
Some people (many from a player chair) assume:
- I invested 9 feats into this tactic so I have a reasonable expectation that it should pretty much always work.
- Because I can't do anything else really that effectively, I should be able to use my good tactic all the time.
- In those circumstances where I can't use my tactic, it's because the GM is intentionally trying to screw me over.
I think generally when you have conflicts of expectations the only thing really to do is to sit down and talk about it and work it out like mature, reasonable people. Beyond that, all you're doing is hopefully delaying that conversation until after the campaign is over and everybody has new characters. This isn't an unworkable situation; every player should consider "what do I do when my basic strategy doesn't work" as part of building their character and it's not unreasonable to have a backup, but GMs should realize that not every scene needs the dramatic tension of "will they succeed or not" and sometimes it's just cool to let the PCs be awesome.
Since, I mean, if the urtechnique doesn't work on ghosts, and the PCs are sent to a haunted mansion, then there are probably going to be ghosts there (since, haunted) but you're still sending the PCs to a haunted mansion and not somewhere that the urtechnique would work better (i.e. "sheesh, if I had known we were just going to be fighting devils all the time, I wouldn't have built a fire oriented character.")
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I find your reasoned, calm response compelling, but I have to stick to my idiom.
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I find your reasoned, calm response compelling, but I have to stick to my idiom.
I said "like mature, reasonable people" not that you had to actually be mature, reasonable people. This is a roleplaying game, after all.
I think generally when you have conflicts of expectations the only thing really to do is to sit down and talk about it and work it out like mature, reasonable people. Beyond that, all you're doing is hopefully delaying that conversation until after the campaign is over and everybody has new characters. This isn't an unworkable situation; every player should consider "what do I do when my basic strategy doesn't work" as part of building their character and it's not unreasonable to have a backup, but GMs should realize that not every scene needs the dramatic tension of "will they succeed or not" and sometimes it's just cool to let the PCs be awesome.
As someone who plays both sides of the table - I can tell you the memories are from both sides of the isle - and as long as you are fair (and honest) I think the players are ok with not working. Sometimes stuff rolls a 1 on a save (or a 20) and even CR 20 MR 10 demon lord wasn't going to land that flesh to stone on you (yea natural 20 on a level 1 commoner).
Othertimes you have Mr. Ogre boss 10th level barbarian ready to go to town and the mage greases his +2 unholy ogre hook.
Stuff happens - I can only really think of one fight in total where things worked like I planned for the monsters - I'm (as the GM) generally just happy if my monster can get a round or two off or activate at least one special ability. Fights where the bad guy doesn't get to move are the only true bummers, not because I want to 'beat' my players - but mostly because the abilities are cool lol.
Thanks for your advice regarding our fighter friend but we have known him for a long time and figured out how to deal with him a long time ago and we know what we can fix and we cannot about him. He is kinda problematic with new GMs but Dalindra and me already know him too well. We know we cannot help him to make a better rounded up character as everything seems too complicated to him (it's not that he isn't clever enough, he's just too lazy to learn the basics. After these years he keeps messing up with Power Attack) but we know how to keep him from ruining other players game experience and it's enough for us. Anything aside from that would require a commitment to the game that he doesn't have. I'm very grateful for your advice anyway.
Now back to the topic, I'm starting to feel a bit guilty for derailing this thread xD
Skills break down at high values - someone with a +20 diplomacy should be a world renown peace negotiator, someone with a +20 to any skill should be the best in the world at what they do - DC's and skill checks break down at higher levels - even at lower levels if you play to bump skills up.
Having a +20 modifier in anything is REALLY good, but for "best in the world at what they do" I think you really need to double that number to about 40 or so. That may not even make them THE best, it may well just get them to "being among the best."
Thanks for your advice regarding our fighter friend but we have known him for a long time and figured out how to deal with him a long time ago and we know what we can fix and we cannot about him. He is kinda problematic with new GMs but Dalindra and me already know him too well. We know we cannot help him to make a better rounded up character as everything seems too complicated to him (it's not that he isn't clever enough, he's just too lazy to learn the basics. After these years he keeps messing up with Power Attack) but we know how to keep him from ruining other players game experience and it's enough for us. Anything aside from that would require a commitment to the game that he doesn't have. I'm very grateful for your advice anyway.
Now back to the topic, I'm starting to feel a bit guilty for derailing this thread xD
Wow. He is very fortunate to have such patient friends such as yourselves. I would never tolerate someone at my table who was so lazy that they couldn't even be bothered to learn the very basics of the game--or even the basics of their own character--after one year, much less nearly a decade! I would just chock it up to them not being interested in the game, then not inviting them back.
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I've seen a player build one of those crazy tripping builds you write home to your mother about. Every single combat he'd trip everything with CMBs in the 40s at level 7 and then wait for others to finish them off.
Then a snake came along.
You can't trip it.
Wh- what do you mean you can't trip it?!
You just can't, next to the CMD it says "Can't be tripped,"
*Hello darkness my old friend*
Or anything that flies. I have had a player with one of those builds, they were seriously annoyed at anything that couldn't be tripped.I've seen a player build one of those crazy tripping builds you write home to your mother about. Every single combat he'd trip everything with CMBs in the 40s at level 7 and then wait for others to finish them off.
Then a snake came along.
You can't trip it.
Wh- what do you mean you can't trip it?!
You just can't, next to the CMD it says "Can't be tripped,"
*Hello darkness my old friend*
We had a player in our group that had a build like that, it didn't bother anyone but they got so bored they re-rolled the character.
On a more positive note, as a player and as a GM I don't mind over specialization when it is played reasonably (no diplomacy on the ogre waving a club at you). A sorcerer I played with had a crazy high intelligence and bellow average wisdom, loved the rp of the player on that. She played it as the naive genius. The sorcerer's DC was so high it was hard to miss, they'd kill anything in battle, but the moment the bad guys turned around and said something along the lines of "Pretty please don't kill us, this is a misunderstanding" the sorcerer would be all about giving the poor demon / homicidal maniac a chance.
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Or anything that flies. I have had a player with one of those builds, they were seriously annoyed at anything that couldn't be tripped.I've seen a player build one of those crazy tripping builds you write home to your mother about. Every single combat he'd trip everything with CMBs in the 40s at level 7 and then wait for others to finish them off.
Then a snake came along.
You can't trip it.
Wh- what do you mean you can't trip it?!
You just can't, next to the CMD it says "Can't be tripped,"
*Hello darkness my old friend*
We had a player in our group that had a build like that, it didn't bother anyone but they got so bored they re-rolled the character.
On a more positive note, as a player and as a GM I don't mind over specialization when it is played reasonably (no diplomacy on the ogre waving a club at you). A sorcerer I played with had a crazy high intelligence and bellow average wisdom, loved the rp of the player on that. She played it as the naive genius. The sorcerer's DC was so high it was hard to miss, they'd kill anything in battle, but the moment the bad guys turned around and said something along the lines of "Pretty please don't kill us, this is a misunderstanding" the sorcerer would be all about giving the poor demon / homicidal maniac a chance.
That's a great way to use your strengths and weaknesses to make your character more unique. I hate when people dump their stats but are not willing to roleplay them: they dump intelligence and they want to come out with brilliant plans, they dump charisma but they want to be witty and charming, etc.
My ninja has high intelligence and low wisdom so she has a poor character judgement as yours but she was quite the opposite: as she lacked empathy she thought everybody was lying or trying to manipulate her so she trusted no one. She ended getting emotionally attached only to very straightforward people who didn't know how to lie or didn't want to. Ironically, she is kinda manipulative and good at lying.
I'm starting to get a solid take from this....
- As a GM - you should accept that some people enjoy building 'I can't fail at this one thing' trick ponies and just let them shine.
- At the same time - once you identify this - the entire table should get the talk that no matter how good you are at something - the mechanics work for the monsters the same way - it's possible to run into something that is as good as you are and so things don't work out (or they fly in the case of trip etc.).
- There is no way (using the rules) to make a character that is IMMUNE to being beaten, because (using the rules) something can be just as good at the counter.
- There are monsters that are immune to things - sometimes if you fight one it's not an attack against your 'thing'.
- The GM playing everything is immune to the 'thing' is a jerk move.
I think I might add these to my house rules document.
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There are monsters that are immune to things - sometimes if you fight one it's not an attack against your 'thing'.
To be used with a certain of moderation. If the trip specialist is constantly meeting creatures immune to tripping. The Gunslinger gun is always targeted for destruction. Can and will annoy a player. Use such monsters but not too much imo.
I've seen a player build one of those crazy tripping builds you write home to your mother about. Every single combat he'd trip everything with CMBs in the 40s at level 7 and then wait for others to finish them off.
Then a snake came along.
You can't trip it.
Wh- what do you mean you can't trip it?!
You just can't, next to the CMD it says "Can't be tripped,"
*Hello darkness my old friend*
It may be immune to the trip combat maneuver, but that doesn't mean you can't find some other way of making it prone. >D
That's why my trip master character used a backup alternate combat maneuver to knock people prone that didn't specify it was tripping.