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Ok, so I don't know if this has been covered somewhere but I can't find it so I'll ask it: Can I TWF with a longsword and Light Shield but still get the ac bonus from the Defending trait on my enchanted gauntlet?
I can not find where the weapon (gauntlet) must be being used as a weapon for this to work.
By the same token, what about a 19th lv thunderstriker weilding a Bastard Sword, Buckler and enchanted gauntlet?
No. You cannot benefit from the Defending quality. As you can see in the special ability description, you must be using the weapon to take advantage of the ability, and holding a sword is not using it.
CRB wrote: Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn.
Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus
What if it is on the shield or Buckler hand?
Unfortunately no as a light shield prevent you from using a weapon and the gauntlet cannot be on the shield, you must wear/wield it.
CRB wrote: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.
Benefit:
Wooden or Steel: Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to some spells and effects.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
You could do it, however, with a buckler though. Forgo the shield AC for the gauntlet bonus.
M_78 wrote: ...
I can not find where the weapon (gauntlet) must be being used as a weapon for this to work.
...
Here it is.
Defending Weapon Property: Do I have to make attack rolls with the weapon to gain its AC bonus?
Yes. Merely holding a defending weapon is not sufficient. Unless otherwise specified, you have to use a magic item in the manner it is designed (use a weapon to make attacks, wear a shield on your arm so you can defend with it, and so on) to gain its benefits.
Therefore, if you don't make an attack roll with a defending weapon on your turn, you don't gain its defensive benefit.
Likewise, while you can give a shield the defending property (after you've given it a +1 enhancement bonus to attacks, of course), you wouldn't get the AC bonus from the defending property unless you used the shield to make a shield bash that round--unless you're using the shield as a weapon (to make a shield bash), the defending weapon property has no effect.
So, basically, the only way to stack this would be to have the improved shield bash feat, a +5 Defending Spiked +5 Shield of bashing and bash with it each round for the extra +5 a.c.?
spikes are not separate weapons so they never get enchated, your shield becomes a spiked shield when you add spikes to it. the wording in them is very confusing. but you can have your spiked shield enchanted as +5 defending spiked shield(weapon) and +5 Bashing spiked shield (defensive), note that bashing and spiked do not stack to increase the size of weapon damage. you take the greater of the 2 which is bashing. But if you have improved shield bash. and this setup you can use the defending portion of the shield, shield to increase your AC further.
Taken from the Core Rules Equipment PRD Entry under: Shield Spikes "An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
This says to me that you can enchant your Shield as a weapon and as a shield. Please explain how you read.
M_78 wrote: Taken from the Core Rules Equipment PRD Entry under: Shield Spikes "An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
This says to me that you can enchant your Shield as a weapon and as a shield. Please explain how you read.
You can enchant it as both. That's why he said "you can have your spiked shield enchanted as +5 defending spiked shield(weapon) and +5 Bashing spiked shield (defensive)."
As a weapon: +5 defending (cost: 72,000 gp)
As a shield: +5 bashing (cost: 36,000 gp)
M_78 wrote: Taken from the Core Rules Equipment PRD Entry under: Shield Spikes "An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
This says to me that you can enchant your Shield as a weapon and as a shield. Please explain how you read.
There's some confusion about what this means. I've yet to see an NPC in any sourcebook that has a +1/+1 shield. There's a PDT FAQ which makes it sound like you can have a +1/+1 shield, but the rules don't specifically say you can put weapon enhancements on shields. It says you can make it a "magic weapon" and that is ambiguous given it specifically says enhancement bonuses on the shield spikes don't affect attack/damage. What has been seen are weapon abilities on enhanced shields.
N N 959 wrote: M_78 wrote: Taken from the Core Rules Equipment PRD Entry under: Shield Spikes "An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
This says to me that you can enchant your Shield as a weapon and as a shield. Please explain how you read.
There's some confusion about what this means. I've yet to see an NPC in any sourcebook that has a +1/+1 shield. There's a PDT FAQ which makes it sound like you can have a +1/+1 shield, but the rules don't specifically say you can put weapon enhancements on shields. It says you can make it a "magic weapon" and that is ambiguous given it specifically says enhancement bonuses on the shield spikes don't affect attack/damage. What has been seen are weapon abilities on enhanced shields. You can put weapon enhancements on shields which are weapons. So bucklers and tower shields don't qualify, but light shields, heavy shields, light spiked shields, heavy spiked shields, klars, and madus can all be enhanced as weapons.
M_78 wrote: Taken from the Core Rules Equipment PRD Entry under: Shield Spikes "An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
This says to me that you can enchant your Shield as a weapon and as a shield. Please explain how you read.
they explained my stance above, I just want to give you an example because of the wording people get confused and think they can do this.
+5 coldiron flaming spikes or spiked (a lot of people think this is a separate weapon) the spike can't actual be enchanted.
+5 shield Defending icy shield (offense)
and +5 Bashing shield (defense)
But the issue is still weather or not a +5 Spiked Defending Shield, with a +5 to AC as well, (Heavy Steel for the sake of argument), when used as a weapon (Improved Shield Bash to retain AC) with the Defending trait active grants AC+7(+2 base +5 enhancement) or AC+12(+2 base +5 enhancement +5 untyped)
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there is no issue it stacks it says so under defending trait that it stacks.
"A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn. This ability can only be placed on melee weapons."
So these are the requirements for defending
1 It is placed on melee weapons, a shield is a melee weapon,
2 you must be wielding it as a weapon, thus shield will have to be used as an attack. This is fine if it is offhand because you are still wielding.
3 you must have free action that is use able (some gm limit the number of free actions you can take in a round.)
4 the weapon must have a weapon enhancement bonus. your shield is +5 weapon enhancement bonus. so yes
As long as you are doing those things you can Add to your AC, as an added bonus this untyped bonus goes to CMD and touch also.
edit.
the only way this ability could get messy and questionable is with a +5 bashing shield, +1 defending (bashing makes it +1 weapon) thus it is now qualifies for the Defensive property. Then try to combine shield master feat. Since the feat treats your defensive enhancement bonus as a weapon one. As a double dip on the defensive enhancement bonus. with out actual paying for the +5 weapon. I can see some why some gm would flat out say no that does not work.
Gisher wrote: You can put weapon enhancements on shields which are weapons. That's not what the rules say. Let's actually read the rules:
PRD wrote: An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right. The rules don't define "weapon" enhancements. They define enhancements and say that any enhancements on a shield do not "improve" the shield bash.
In EVERY NPC example of enchanted weapons that I've seen, NONE of them have a "weapon" enhancement. Please provide a counter-example if you know of one. What they do have are weapon special abilities. So the bit about "a magic weapon in its own right" means that once you have a +1 enhancement on the shield (which only counts towards AC) then you can put weapon abilities on the shield. But based on what the authors have done, you get nothing from a +5 / +5 shield. Even though there is a PDT FAQ which suggests that this can be done, it would seem the rules don't actually allow it to be of benefit. Or to put it another way...a +5 / +5 shield has the same bonus to attack and damage as a +5 shield.
Quote: light shields, heavy shields, light spiked shields, heavy spiked shields, klars, and madus can all be enhanced as weapons. They can be enchanted with weapon abilities, but they gain no benefit from enhancements bonuses as a weapon.
"But shields can be made into a magic weapon in its own right" seems like the counter example. In the very text you quoted. Then you reference the rules for magic weapons and find that a +1 weapon gives you +1 to attack and damage rolls, so... you apply it to attacks with that weapon. Unless there's some specific rule to the contrary, which you haven't provided yet.
That you haven't seen an NPC with a shield enchanted as a magic weapon isn't a counter example, it just means there aren't any NPCs (that you've seen) that have done it.
Squiggit wrote: That you haven't seen an NPC with a shield enchanted as a magic weapon isn't a counter example, it just means there aren't any NPCs (that you've seen) that have done it. Or rather, that there aren't any NPCs in this database of all Pathfinder NPCs that have done it.
Hand of the Inheritor from AP 26 has a "+2 axiomatic holy spiked heavy steel shield", but the +2 is included in his shield bonus to AC so it is a shield enhancement rather than a weapon enhancement... despite the shield also having the axiomatic and holy magic weapon special abilities.
You CAN make a +x (shield)/+y (weapon) enchanted shield. That's what the CRB says, pretty explicitly. It's just that most adventure writers prefer simple statblocks, and besides Bashing and Shield Master exist.
Also, Defending weapons are terrible.
Squiggit wrote: "But shields can be made into a magic weapon in its own right" seems like the counter example. A counter example how? A +2 Holy Shield is a a "magic weapon in its own right," is it not? On shield bash such as shield would get an extra 2d6 against evil creatures. Only you don't get any bonuses to attack and damage from the enhancements because that's what the rule book says.
Quote: Unless there's some specific rule to the contrary, which you haven't provided yet. uh yeah...it was in the quote you of mine you just quoted.
Quote: An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it So whether or not you can create a +1 / +4 shield, you're not getting any bonuses to bashes/attacks made with the shield on account of your placing "enhancement" bonuses on the weapon side of the shield. That's explicitly stated. And you'll notice that it says "An enhancement bonus on a shield." It does not say a "shield enhancement." The word order would appear to be important as it tells us that in this section, there are only "enhancements" and what they do depends on what they are placed on. So placing an enhancement on a shield does only one thing, even if we can enhance the weapon-side of the shield and it's not clear that you can do that.
What even contributes to this notion is that even enhancements on a spiked shield don't help.
PRD on Shield Spikes wrote: An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right. Seems a consistent approach that you cannot get any enhancement value from shield bashes. Even Shield Master doesn't actually grant you an enhancement to attack, it only improves your damage and attack "as if" it were an weapon enhancement.
Fistbeard McBeardfist wrote: You CAN make a +x (shield)/+y (weapon) enchanted shield. That's what the CRB says, pretty explicitly. Really? Can you show me where that is stated "explicitly"?
N N 959 wrote: Fistbeard McBeardfist wrote: You CAN make a +x (shield)/+y (weapon) enchanted shield. That's what the CRB says, pretty explicitly. Really? Can you show me where that is stated "explicitly"?
just quoting from d20pfsrd, because your question is stupid and I can't be arsed to get off the couch and retrieve my book: "A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC." From the magic items chapter, magic armor section.
Fistbeard McBeardfist wrote: N N 959 wrote: Fistbeard McBeardfist wrote: You CAN make a +x (shield)/+y (weapon) enchanted shield. That's what the CRB says, pretty explicitly. Really? Can you show me where that is stated "explicitly"?
just quoting from d20pfsrd, because your question is stupid and I can't be arsed to get off the couch and retrieve my book: "A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC." From the magic items chapter, magic armor section. Indulge me. Please let me know in which actual rule book that paragraph can be found.
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N N 959 wrote: Fistbeard McBeardfist wrote: N N 959 wrote: Fistbeard McBeardfist wrote: You CAN make a +x (shield)/+y (weapon) enchanted shield. That's what the CRB says, pretty explicitly. Really? Can you show me where that is stated "explicitly"?
just quoting from d20pfsrd, because your question is stupid and I can't be arsed to get off the couch and retrieve my book: "A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC." From the magic items chapter, magic armor section. Indulge me. Please let me know in which actual rule book that paragraph can be found.
Thank you in advance. cORE rULEBOOK, 6th printing, p. 462. Anything else you need me to do for you?
Nice Find, Fistbeard McBeardfist!
NN959, you can also find it here on the PRD.
PRD wrote: Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description).
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
That clearly states, not only that a shield can have an enhancement bonus on attack rolls, but that it can simultaneously have an enhancement bonus to AC.
And that is entirely compatible with this FAQ stating that you can have a shield with the defending special ability, but only if you first add an enhancement bonus to attack rolls of at least +1.
PRD wrote: Defending Weapon Property: Do I have to make attack rolls with the weapon to gain its AC bonus?
Yes. Merely holding a defending weapon is not sufficient. Unless otherwise specified, you have to use a magic item in the manner it is designed (use a weapon to make attacks, wear a shield on your arm so you can defend with it, and so on) to gain its benefits.
Therefore, if you don't make an attack roll with a defending weapon on your turn, you don't gain its defensive benefit.
Likewise, while you can give a shield the defending property (after you've given it a +1 enhancement bonus to attacks, of course), you wouldn't get the AC bonus from the defending property unless you used the shield to make a shield bash that round--unless you're using the shield as a weapon (to make a shield bash), the defending weapon property has no effect.
Since they say that you have to have a weapon enhancement bonus to add defending, and they also say that it is possible to add defending, it necessarily follows that you must be able to add weapon enhancement bonuses to shields (that qualify as weapons).
Fistbeard McBeardfist wrote:
cORE rULEBOOK, 6th printing, p. 462. Anything else you need me to do for you?
Found it. Thanks again.
Example:
Here is a klar
It's enhancement bonus applies to attacks and armor bonus.
8,000 gp for +1 keen weapon
1,000 gp for +1 shield
150 gp for Masterwork Shield
300 gp for Masterwork Weapon
12 gp for Klar
-----
9,462 gp total
That leaves 2,000 gp for:
Quote: If the wielder confirms a critical hit against a creature that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of bleed damage.
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