Flying Druid Question

[Nickos90]

Hey guys,

so one of my players is playing a Druid and uses the same tactic over and over. He uses his natural beast shape to turn into a bird and flys over the battlefield while he is casting spell after spell. It's pretty tough to hunt him down, cause the player argues that a bird isn't a threat to an enemy so that most enemies shouldn't have the ability to attack him directly.

Some questions here:

1) He has the Feat that allows him to use spells in animal form - but can he even use his bests spells, which needed some sort of material component? I hardly can imagine a bird to sacrifice components for casting spells.

2) In Beast-Shape => HP, AC, and equipment stays the same, but other things like Skills and profile stats change - right?

3) We never used Fly-Rules - but since I start to feel that these tactics are really cheap - I would like to start using them: so I guess that means, he has to move every round for his move action, limiting spells to only standard action spells. I think that flying as a bird and casting spells is pretty tough - so do you think it's a good idea to say, that a druid in bird form has to make successful concentration checks for every spell he wants to use while flying around?

[Chess Pwn]

1) the feat lets him use materials just fine. Do note, ALL spellcasting is visible of WHO is casting it. So after his first spell the enemy would know that the bird just cast some spell.

2) You follow the rules for beast shape. Going to bird you gain dex and a little natural armor, lose any armor you're wearing.
Skill ranks and such stay the same, stats change as the spells says to change.

3)if he puts ranks into the fly skill he can hover with rolling a 1. I would suggest NOT making new houserules against this guy.

[Java Man]

Do all of your encounters occur outdoors with no overhead cover?

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Nickos90 wrote:

Hey guys,

so one of my players is playing a Druid and uses the same tactic over and over. He uses his natural beast shape to turn into a bird and flys over the battlefield while he is casting spell after spell. It's pretty tough to hunt him down, cause the player argues that a bird isn't a threat to an enemy so that most enemies shouldn't have the ability to attack him directly.

Have a flying NPC druid do the same thing to your party, casting lightning storms at him. Watch how fast he changes his tune. If he doesn't, the rest of the players damm well will. The old Sauce for the Gander maneuver.

Wild Shaped Druids are just as observable in their spellcasting as any other caster.

[box0rama]

Spells have ranges. And unlike bows, guns, and slings, can not be cast above that range. Give the NPCs bows. As it was said before, spell casting is loud and visible. Unless the player is using silent/still spell, the NPCs should know the bird is casting. Start using the enviromental rules of winds and fly checks, do not go overboard with that. Read up on druid wild shape, the feats and such to avoid person like thay from taking advantage of your "infinite" gm wisdom. You don't have to know everything just what matters

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

box0rama wrote:

Spells have ranges. And unlike bows, guns, and slings, can not be cast above that range. Give the NPCs bows. As it was said before, spell casting is loud and visible. Unless the player is using silent/still spell, the NPCs should know the bird is casting.

As mentioned before in numerous FAQ questions, the silent and still metamagics have absolutely no impact on the observability of spellcasting, or the identification of the spell being cast.

[box0rama]

I apologize. I did not mean to suggest that the spell was invisible or unseen.

[Letric]

The guy is using a perfectly viable tactic.
I'm guessing he's a blasting focused druid, otherwise he's wasting wildship for its use in combat.
Also, you don't get mad at a player using her class features. It's comparable to saying "Barbarian is using Rage and dealing too much damage".

It all depends on what enemies you're fighting. If it's a home campaign you can add randomly some fun elements:

-strong wind will make casting harder
-prepared action from other spellcasters (though it's usually bad) or from archers (a better idea)
-flying enemies that would target the druid once they understand it's doing something nasty
-unless the enemy is stupid, a simple perception check by enemies could make them aware of the Eagle. Eagles could be not common in the area and raise suspicions by such enemies.

Finally, it's a tactic. You cannot penalize a character for using his build/class.
Wildshape last 1 hour level, but you don't have that many. You can't speak in animal form, and once used its not there anymore if you change back, unless higher levels.
Also, it's the same as a Wizard casting fly and hovering over enemies head.

[ChemE Kaun]

Attack his pride. Introduce reputation and honor rules. He is known as a coward to the locales. Many players want to be a badass, not just in ability but in reputation. They want to cultivate an image. Perhaps he is thinking of himself as Stormcrow or Deathwing or some other vain title. Have the group come upon a wanted poster offering 500gp for the capture of the infamous “Chicken Witch” or the “Yellow Druid” or some name to illustrate his actions.

Building upon my first suggestion, have the locales perhaps launch an inquisition against “witches” (witches, druids, all the same to a peasant). They could use falconry (trained predator birds to attack). Have orcs train hawks, and giants train rocs.

Introduce a cult of druids of opposing alignments to basically employ a similar tactic.

The wingclipper feat would cause him to plummet down. As would a dispel magic, or an arrow imbued with dispel magic.

Rangers with species enemy “animals.” See the “Ranger Creature” template to give ranger qualities to monsters.

Start awarding bonus experience points to other players for creative tactics and their ability to handle monsters in unique ways. Then if he is discontent just shrug your shoulders and tell him that there isn’t anything creative about doing the same thing over and over again.

Since his spells come from nature or a being of some sort, perhaps such a being may not approve of its follower using its abilities to rain death at every encounter like an apache helicopter.

I’m not sure if you can adjust the XP for an easy encounter but if you can then go for it.

Introduce a much higher level NPC druid of similar alignment that could wipe the whole party out if he wanted but don’t. Just have him be a part of an adventure hook. Basically the embodiment of what your player wishes to be. Your player will expect a connection but perhaps this much older and wiser druid scoffs at the way your player carries himself. An old school playa disgusted with this generation of druids. “The gifts of mother nature are a shield, not a sword young druidling.”

As for his argument. As others have pointed out spellcasting is noticeable whether coming from a bird or human. Building upon this, if his logic is sound in that an animal wouldn’t be perceived as a threat then watch how he reacts when you introduce the same tactic. If you describe a bird flying overhead and he immediately casts a stoneskin before you are done reading the description then call him out on his hypocritical argument. Remind him he is roleplaying poorly.

I had a character act in this manner. As the DM you aren’t going to describe every scene in which the players encounter. They will see birds, they may even hear a noise that turns out to be just a mouse. Prepping for battle every time you open your mouth is poor role playing. The players may know that every time you describe something an encounter is likely to occur. But their characters do not and you cannot act on player knowledge if your character is ignorant. I had a player do something like this. Whether I was describing the winter chill before a frost giant emerged, or the smell of fungus and blood before a troll came out of hiding he would cast stoneskin before I could even finish the description. So I simply changed the encounter on the fly. I continued with my description which ended with nothing more than flavor text and him out 100gp material component. Do the same to him. Have him waste his wildshape abilities on minor encounters. And remind players what poor roleplaying entails.

Time to introduce a subterranean adventure. Or travel through a forest where he is forced to fly low in order to actually see the enemies.

My friend. I feel for you. Players like this take the charm out of the game. Druids are supposed to be mystical and mysterious. Not ultrapractical 100% efficient military scientists. This is a tricky issue to handle though. The rules are so robust that weaknesses exist and players love to exploit them. But they don’t look at it as exploitation. You don’t want to give him the impression you are waiving the DM wand. The trick is to slowly implement these changes so subtly that you don’t appear as though you’ve done your homework and plan to single him out. Try to have all these suggestions effect another player before him. Perhaps in 2 or 3 sessions the dynamics of your campaign will change such that your new implements won’t make you seem like an A-hole DM.

[Agodeshalf]

As others have said this is a perfectly viable tactic subject to some rules:
1) The visible effect of casting spells are seen above the bird, so he becomes a target
2) Concentration is certainly an issue: wind, flying etc are pluses to the check. +15 + spell level while not impossible could put a bit of a damper of the use.

Now if he/she has conceal spell then they can hide the casting, otherwise he's arrow fodder

[DM Livgin]

First: Flying casters is a legitimate tactic. Druids are just able to access this tactic earlier than others. Accept that the player isn't being cheap, they just built for a tactic and are executing it successfully.

Second: read up on the fly rules to ensure you are aware of the fine print (as mentioned, with an investment into the fly skill flying becomes easy for a druid.) Read up on the polymorph and beast shape rules to ensure you aware of all the fine print (most of it is in the magic schools section of the core rulebook). Speak with the player to ensure you both have the same understanding of how these rules work.

Third: Now that everyone is on the same page. Assess your encounters, if encounters are too consistent a superior tactic will arise and the combat will become repetitive. Are the encounters constantly in the open against brute enemies (brute enemies are hard hitting enemies with few tactical options other than running up and hitting people)?

3.a: If you are writing your own encounters, work to add some variety: have encounters with low roofs, give the enemies back-up ranged weapons, throw in some casters or tanglefoot bags. Don't try to completely shut down the flying druid, let him shine, but add encounters where the tactic is not applicable. This will keep things interesting for the druid and give the other party members a chance to shine.

3.b: If you are using a published encounter: make sure you are utilizing all the enemy abilities, low level mooks may have ranged weapons but not the feats to effectively shoot into melee so that flying druid will make a tempting target. Published adventures also tend to be fairly good for adding variety, you can let him have his day in the sun until the adventure eventually sends a fiendish bat swarm after the group.