Possessed Hand Feat Line....

[thecursor]

I know the reason is probably pretty obvious but I kind of don't get why the first two feats in that line are illegal. Don't get me wrong, Hand's Knowledge, Autonomy, etc. those bans make a lot of sense to me.

But Possessed Hand and Hand's Sight don't seem that unbalancing. Is it because of the "Retrieve" Mechanic? Because I agree that seem's suspect. I'm not arguing for a change, just mildly curious.

[DesolateHarmony]

From the Haunted Heroes Handbook. I can't find a link to the descriptions.

[thecursor]

DesolateHarmony wrote:

From the Haunted Heroes Handbook. I can't find a link to the descriptions.

I'm reading it over, what am I looking for? I mean it's an fun feat line for sure.

EDIT: I'm sorry, you were just trying to cite what I was talking about, thank you.

[technarken]

Because they're icky, and solid feats for all those melee builds that AREN'T 2-handed power attack. That's 2 strikes. More than enough for something to get Ze Banhammer these days.

[thecursor]

technarken wrote:

Because they're icky, and solid feats for all those melee builds that AREN'T 2-handed power attack. That's 2 strikes. More than enough for something to get Ze Banhammer these days.

Well later on the Feat Line gets nasty but those first two seem fairly harmless.

[Kalindlara]

Just by itself, Possessed Hand is pretty potent when compared to, say, Weapon Focus. +1 attack with all weapons, plus +1 damage with all weapons, plus several minor bonuses, with a drawback that only affects spellcasters. That's arguably the one I'd be most worried about - the others aren't that bad, especially since they have several prerequisites as a balancing factor.

This (along with the pact wizard from the same book) might also be part of a policy shift. If something has the potential to be problematic, it's easier to ban it from the start than to wrench it away from everyone who was using it to start with... and the latter gets way more backlash. (Imagine the reaction if they banned Fate's Favored at this point. Just... imagine it.)

That's just my read, though. ^_^

[thecursor]

Kalindlara wrote:

Just by itself, Possessed Hand is pretty potent when compared to, say, Weapon Focus. +1 attack with all weapons, plus +1 damage with all weapons, plus several minor bonuses, with a drawback that only affects spellcasters. That's arguably the one I'd be most worried about - the others aren't that bad, especially since they have several prerequisites as a balancing factor.

This (along with the pact wizard from the same book) might also be part of a policy shift. If something has the potential to be problematic, it's easier to ban it from the start than to wrench it away from everyone who was using it to start with... and the latter gets way more backlash. (Imagine the reaction if they banned Fate's Favored at this point. Just... imagine it.)

That's just my read, though. ^_^

Okay, I see what you're saying. This, in my head, might be a fair reason to ban it. It's a shame because the idea of character with a cool Evil Dead type deformity and an eye ball on his palm would be neat but not if it's gonna throw off table balance. *sigh* Maybe one day.

[schattenstern]

I am very much in favour of not allowing things and not to ban/change them afterwards. This leads to much fewer problems, but it is a bit disappointing to see some cool options banned, especially because the hand feats seem very fun to play with.

[Kalindlara]

It's always a shame when cool options are disallowed due to balance concerns of one sort of another - I'm still sad about the effortless lace and the Lust emotional focus. But I've learned enough about the process to have some understanding of the reasoning for both.

Plus, neither are beyond the possibility of a well-argued thread for their allowance. ^_^

[thecursor]

Alexander Lenz wrote:

I am very much in favour of not allowing things and not to ban/change them afterwards. This leads to much fewer problems, but it is a bit disappointing to see some cool options banned, especially because the hand feats seem very fun to play with.

Agreed, but this thread has convinced me that it's better to ban early than to grandfather some stuff in and ban later. I'd rather take the candy off the table than for them to sell me crumbs.

[thecursor]

Kalindlara wrote:

It's always a shame when cool options are disallowed due to balance concerns of one sort of another - I'm still sad about the effortless lace and the Lust emotional focus. But I've learned enough about the process to have some understanding of the reasoning for both.

Plus, neither are beyond the possibility of a well-argued thread for their allowance. ^_^

Sadly my only argument at this time is allowing it so that I can build my Blinded, Worshiper of Videis Sensate Fighter with these feats and literally walking through a darkened dungeon with his eyeball hand outstretched, seeking out those who have done evil.

Also, I hope to god they don't ban the Videis trait!

EDIT: This character would be blindfolded to, clad all in red, just marching through the darkness and then he hears a sound and points his palm in it's direction and the eyelid opens...

[Kalindlara]

Yeah, I don't know if Blind Zeal will make it through. The only thing I can say for sure about Divine Anthology is that Desna's Shooting Star has no shot. I love it, but it just isn't happening.

[thecursor]

Kalindlara wrote:

Yeah, I don't know if Blind Zeal will make it through. The only thing I can say for sure about Divine Anthology is that Desna's Shooting Star has no shot. I love it, but it just isn't happening.

Yeah, Shooting Star is toast. It's...glorious just for the flavor value alone but toast. I'm crossing my fingers that Blind Zeal will be allowed if only because far too many people have asked about building a blind character at some point.

[Rysky]

Kalindlara wrote:

I'm still sad about the effortless lace and the Lust emotional focus.

;_;

[Z...D...]

Speaking of feat lines that do not get finished. Mobile Bulwark combat style. Final step is Mobile Stronghold. Wanted it for my dwarven tower shield fighter.

[Kalindlara]

Z...D... wrote:

Speaking of feat lines that do not get finished. Mobile Bulwark combat style. Final step is Mobile Stronghold. Wanted it for my dwarven tower shield fighter.

The total-cover-as-immediate-action thing killed that one.

[Z...D...]

Kalindlara wrote:

Z...D... wrote:

Speaking of feat lines that do not get finished. Mobile Bulwark combat style. Final step is Mobile Stronghold. Wanted it for my dwarven tower shield fighter.

The total-cover-as-immediate-action thing killed that one.

I can think of worst things as an immediate action. Cough..emergency force sphere..cough..cough

[Kalindlara]

Z...D... wrote:

I can think of worst things as an immediate action. Cough..emergency force sphere..cough..cough

I knew there was something I was thinking of when I made my post about never-allowing-instead-of-banning. ^_^

[Serisan]

Z...D... wrote:

I can think of worst things as an immediate action. Cough..emergency force sphere..cough..cough

Expect table variation on that one. The operating ruling for many GMs makes that spell much less viable.

[KingOfAnything]

Serisan wrote:

Z...D... wrote:

I can think of worst things as an immediate action. Cough..emergency force sphere..cough..cough

Expect table variation on that one. The operating ruling for many GMs makes that spell much less viable.

Much less viable is still about as or more effective than Mobile Stronghold.

[Hayato Ken]

Kalindlara wrote:

Yeah, I don't know if Blind Zeal will make it through. The only thing I can say for sure about Divine Anthology is that Desna's Shooting Star has no shot. I love it, but it just isn't happening.

Haha i don´t see that happening either^^

Just think of a level 1 human oracle with this feat, noble scion of war and a certain mystery. Attack, damage, Initiative, AC and reflex save all from CHA. The only other thing you need is a bit of CON.
I can hear teeth grinding worldwide :D

[9mm]

Kalindlara wrote:

Just by itself, Possessed Hand is pretty potent when compared to, say, Weapon Focus. +1 attack with all weapons, plus +1 damage with all weapons, plus several minor bonuses, with a drawback that only affects spellcasters. That's arguably the one I'd be most worried about - the others aren't that bad, especially since they have several prerequisites as a balancing factor.

That is more a function of weapon focus being bad, not possessed hand being good.

[Kalindlara]

9mm wrote:

That is more a function of weapon focus being bad, not possessed hand being good.

True or not, I suspect that has very little effect on the decision. What matters is that Weapon Focus is the measuring stick being used. ^_^

[9mm]

Kalindlara wrote:

9mm wrote:

That is more a function of weapon focus being bad, not possessed hand being good.

True or not, I suspect that has very little effect on the decision. What matters is that Weapon Focus is the measuring stick being used. ^_^

And it's a crappy measuring stick; who's reliance on which continues to have organized play make bad decisions. Technarken almost certainly has the actual reason pinned down; and I, for one, am tired of having to throw interesting characters away because of nonsensical bannings, of which possessed hand is most definitely one.

[Kalindlara]

I honestly and unsarcastically wish you the best of luck with finding a play environment more to your tastes, then, as it's unlikely that PFS will change policies to suit your style in the near future.

[9mm]

Kalindlara wrote:

I honestly and unsarcastically wish you the best of luck with finding a play environment more to your tastes, then, as it's unlikely that PFS will change policies to suit your style in the near future.

after 3 in progress characters burned.. yeah, me too.

[thecursor]

I'm less angry about it, and more amused since it kind of plays into that whole "PFS is not fun" thing that I sometimes come across when I try to get Pathfinder Home gamers to play PFS with me.

I don't get that. I love PFS, I really only PFS and I understand that part of that is respecting the decision of the Faces that Run Our Places. I've talked to John Compton online a couple of times, I understand the balancing act he's got to deal with when it comes to this stuff. I'm sure the other people in the Organized campaign from the lowest Ventrue LT to the highest Administrator do the best they can with what they have. Getting salty about it ain't gonna make his job or their job or my gaming experience any better.

Does this scrap a character? Well it might put it on the back burner while I wait for them to change their minds/add a boon. But it's not world breaking. I also wish I'd known about this decision before I bought the book since that was the only reason I bought it but that's more on me than anything else. Wait till it's on AR, kids, wait till it's on AR, lol.

Don't get mad, just...go with the flow, y'know?

[MadScientistWorking]

Kalindlara wrote:

9mm wrote:

That is more a function of weapon focus being bad, not possessed hand being good.

True or not, I suspect that has very little effect on the decision. What matters is that Weapon Focus is the measuring stick being used. ^_^

Its not. They have allowed feats that more or less replace the junky combat feats from Core like Combat Expertise.

[jcdman1]

I have a character with the demon talon arm. This feat fits well with that character, other than that I didn't want the other feats related to the possessed hand because they didn't fit with the character.