I am reading the game mastering book but I just want to clarify on how to build an encounter.
APL is 2. (5 players all lvl 2)
My intent was to have a
1 Hobgoblin Captain 3rd lvl Ranger (Archery focused on light war horse)
3 Hobgoblin lietenants (2nd lvl fighters)
6 more hobgoblin regulars.
All were going to ambush the party at range using composite shortbows and Javelins.
From there the leader (The ranger) was going to plink a few more times from horseback and then ride away. I wanted him to return as one of the leaders to the Fangwood Keep module. The lieutenants would draw weapon focused battle axes and head into battle with the regulars.
Not sure if this is a bit too much for 5 players but it feels worthy of them.
That's likely to be bloody. It's basically a CR 6.5 fight—six CR 1/2 creatures, three CR 1 creatures, and one CR 2 creature. Plus, a CR 1 horse. Against an APL of about 2.
And the hobgoblins all have composite shortbows. We're talking ten shortbow attacks per round, dealing an average of around 5-7 damage per shot. That's a lot of potential damage. And about every other round, one of them is going to get a crit threat, meaning an about 15-21 damage in a single attack—enough to insta-kill an injured 2nd level PC. The hobgoblins outnumber the PCs about 2 to 1.
How optimized is the party? Are the PCs highly invested in their Armor Classes? That's the best counter against sheer numbers.
I would reduce the hobgoblins' numbers substantially. This is almost certainly going to kill a PC unless you pull your punches.
The captain (since its a classed NPC), if he has normal npc wealth, should be a CR2 on his own. The Lieutenants are CR1, and the regulars are probably CR1/2.
Based on EXP math this is 3000 XP or around a CR6.8 encounter. Ouch. APL+4.8!
If we assume that the captain shouts some orders, fires once and then leaves, we can omit him from the total. w/ 2400 XP, this ends up a CR6 encounter. Still very tough looking. APL+4 would normally indicate a VERY hard encounter.
The mitigating factors here include: The enemies are numerous but weak (typically this means that they will be less challenging than their CR indicates), the party will likely have access to magic that will even the odds, and the enemies may have suboptimal tactics. If the party has AoE magic and the enemies have bad tactics, we can say the real difficulty will be up to 1 CR lower.
I'm concerned about the idea that the hobgoblins are laying an ambush, especially if they have ranged weapons. 9 creatures with composite shortbows/javelins can easily kill one or more players in the surprise round even with average rolls. A significant terrain/surprise advantage would typically bump up the CR by 1.
Typically, you want non-boss encounters to never exceed CR = APL+3. If this encounter is happening while the party is at full hit points and with all of their resources at their disposal, CR = APL+3 is challenging but probably appropriate.
My suggestion would be that the captain is the only one with a ranged weapon and that the hobgoblins use their surprise round to run in from their hiding spot towards the party. That way the party has to contend with enemies immediately in their midst, but doesn't get alpha-striked without a chance to respond.
Good luck! Making encounters is a bit of an art, but also tends to be a lot of fun once you get used to it.
Sure, weaker enemies are less challenging at higher level play, but at low levels the gap is much smaller—the PCs haven't had the chance to buff their AC and spell list enough to instantly eliminate trivial foes. And action economy is something to consider, even with a bunch of martials.
Otherwise, I agree with Cellion on all points.
The ambush is what pushes it a little bit to much over. With that many hobgolins they can drop 1 or 2 pcs before they get a turn as low level pcs have terrible hp. I would drop the ambush part but maybe give them a bit of bonus power in the form of feats or other tactical advantage(IE cover, nighttime, pre placed caltrops, etc).
Also I would give the captain a better escape plan. A dedicated cleric, a potion of vanish, and smoke bombs are very easy and cheap answers
Edit: ninjaed
Caltrops is a good idea—it's annoying, but doesn't give a massive combat disadvantage.
Think of it this way, your CR 2 captain is an average challenge for this party by himself (assuming his mount is some form of class ability) given that he is starting from range and can full attack plus move while riding his mount. General advice is not to use single-enemy encounters, however (and I heartily endorse it).
Your 3 CR 1 lieutenants are a CR 4 (hard) encounter by themselves. Two of them would be a CR 3 (challenging). Given that they are getting the drop on the PCs and are at range and have ranged weapons, that's kind of harsh.
I think the 6 CR 0.5 hobgoblins are a CR 4 (hard) encounter by themselves. Maybe CR 5. I hate fractional CR monsters. Khan!!
Suggestion is to break up the encounter into pieces and have the hobgoblins attack in waves (or at least have the PCs encounter them in waves) rather than a single encounter. Good luck!
Ok this is all excellent advice and I will revise my encounter!
How did you arrive at the 3 lieutenants being CR4? they are each CR 2 at best so what is it that pushed them to CR4?
I am asking as this part of building I am simply not absorbing as I should and I ask the forum to bear with me and know that I am doing my best to understand what you all are teaching me.
I have been playing D&D since the 70's yet the DM'ng has always been a wing it kind of thing and this time around I wanted to really do good encounters within the rules as they are written.
Ok this is all excellent advice and I will revise my encounter!
How did you arrive at the 3 lieutenants being CR4? they are each CR 2 at best so what is it that pushed them to CR4?
I kinda glossed over this in my explanation, but you add up the contribution of each of the enemies in the encounter in order to find the encounter's total CR. The most time consuming but most accurate method to do this is to add up the total experience listed in the bestiary entries for the monsters you have, then compare that to the amount of experience a higher CR monster would give. Note that all enemies of a certain CR give a set amount of XP.
Your CR1/2 hobgoblin regulars grant 200 XP, your CR1 lieutenants grant 400 XP and your CR2 captain grants 600 XP. So in total:
200x6 + 400x3 + 600 = 3000 XP.
A CR6 monster is normally 2400 XP and a CR7 monster is normally 3200 XP. Thats where I got my CR6.8.
Another rule of thumb that works for monsters of CR1 and above is that two dudes of CRX = a total CR of X+2. So two CR1 guys = CR3 total. This method is fast, but not very accurate when there are a lot of dudes with varied CR to add up.
To answer your question: 3 CR1 dudes is 400 x 3 = 1200 XP. A CR4 creature gives 1200 XP.
Keep in mind that total CR is just one piece of a complicated puzzle when it comes to encounters (people upthread pointed this out with examples). Terrain, how injured/tired your party is, monster tactics, how optimized individual characters are... all these factors aren't part of the CR math but make a huge impact on the difficulty of an encounter.
I'd suggest having the javelins go every other round and only half throw. Like 3 throw then the other three run to grab more. then they run back and hand off. Then round 3 you throw three more.
something like this makes them not really outnumber the party in actions per round.
have the captains have just clubs and leather armor.
this makes them weaker by having really bad gear. Give them expensive necklaces if this fight is needing to give them gold.
have the captains sit back and let all the minions die before fighting, why risk my life when I can have them lose theirs first.
This helps on the outnumber aspect too.
Make them all sickened because they are really hungry? a -2 to all attack rolls and damage is pretty helpful.
Things like these can help a fight be easier for a party. And the party still gets to kill a lot of things in an outnumbered fight to feel awesome about it.
Ok this is all excellent advice and I will revise my encounter!
How did you arrive at the 3 lieutenants being CR4? they are each CR 2 at best so what is it that pushed them to CR4?
I am asking as this part of building I am simply not absorbing as I should and I ask the forum to bear with me and know that I am doing my best to understand what you all are teaching me.
I have been playing D&D since the 70's yet the DM'ng has always been a wing it kind of thing and this time around I wanted to really do good encounters within the rules as they are written.
I often use the Paizo.com/prd source when thinking about encounter designs. If you click on Core Rulebook and then click on Gamemastering there is a couple of tables that should assist you with encounters.
But general rule of thumb is as stated by Cellion...two CR 1 enemies are their individual CR + 2 (CR 3). Add another and it becomes CR 4. Look at the table under Gamemastering and it will explain it.
Also, when adding PC class levels to enemies you really have to understand what you're adding to which enemy chassis and how that impacts the CR of the end result. To read up on how to do that, click on Bestiaries instead of Core Rulebook and then click on Monster Advancement. It takes a bit of understanding, but it is quite freeing once you understand how it works. You now have nearly limitless monster options! Good luck.
Why are the Hobgoblins waiting to ambush? E.g. Are they specifically waiting for the party or are they guarding a path against a potential enemy force? In the former case it is likely that all members of the hobgoblins will stay and fight as a kill squad, whilst in the latter case it is more important for the hobgoblin captain to escape and raise the alarm.
In either case it is probably worth de-equipping the troops. Perhaps the regulars have 1 javelin each whilst the leaders have crossbows instead of bows. This will allow you to fire from ambush but considerably slows the successive rate of fire.
If the main purpose is to allow the captain to escape then he is probably only going to be around for 1 round. 2/3 of the squad are likely to engage the party whilst the remainder hang back as a defensive screen to allow the captain to escape and engage after 3 or 4 rounds. If the encounter is still too hard then maybe drop 1 lieutenant and 2 regulars and instead have the regulars engage whilst the lieutenants hang back. At the end of the encounter the party should know that the hobgoblins are aware of them, but may not realise that they were potentially mistaken as a scouting party for a larger force.
If the kill-squad scenario is too lethal, cut the number of troops and lieutenants until you are at the appropriate difficulty. The party should know that the hobgoblins are after them and will be wary of who the captain has alerted.
Basically adding more enemies scales the CR by more than normal because it adds to their action economy which is way more important than actual stats. Its the same reason you have to make NPCs you dont want dead significantly more powerful than the PCs
Honestly CR is more of a guideline than a hard rule. In this case because of your parties low levels the fight is much more swingy simply do to luck. As long as they aren't ambushed your party has a good chance of winning that encounter. That said Crit happens. IE: 5 lv2 have a random encounter with 5 dodos(as stated in book). 1 person was conscious at the end. After healing they took out their frustration on a local fortress.
Long story short just don't ambush them and they should be fine. If they aren't you have a subplot.