If you cannot detect a combatant, are you still in initiative?
For example:
-A combatant is invisible and waiting in a location.
-Intended target moves towards location. (Not in combat)
-Undetected combatant attacks with surprise as targets moves close enough. (Target is not in-combat until surprise round is over).
-Now target is in-combat.
-Combat progresses.
-Combatant becomes invisible and stops attacking.
-Target can no longer detect combatant.
---Question: at what point is the target not in combat?---
What I am specifically looking for is how to cause someone to be Flat-Footed, not just denied dex bonus. And in the above example you are FF until you act in combat, so in the surprise round and then if the combatant gets a lucky init roll it's target would be FF for two attack actions. (Correct?)
Not detecting a combatant after combined has started does not mean the combat is over. This is basically GM discretion.
You're also wrong in that the surprise round is "in-combat", even if the target is unaware and hasn't acted. They're still in combat.
Yes, if you're lucky on initiative you could get an attack in the surprise round and also one before the opponent (getting two attacks against flat-footed AC) though there are also many abilities that can help stop this as well as just rolling better than you in initiative.
But yes, at some point if the aggressor stops attacking and remains hidden "combat" ends but there is no set time frame or rule for this.
I'm guessing you're trying to do something with the rogue sap master ability that gets bonus damage for attacking a flat-footed person specifically (not just denied dex).
My generic advice here is: Pick up Shatter Defenses and use it and don't try to stealth your way into getting additional attacks against flat-footed AC.
Not detecting a combatant after combined has started does not mean the combat is over. This is basically GM discretion.
You're also wrong in that the surprise round is "in-combat", even if the target is unaware and hasn't acted. They're still in combat.
Yes, if you're lucky on initiative you could get an attack in the surprise round and also one before the opponent (getting two attacks against flat-footed AC) though there are also many abilities that can help stop this as well as just rolling better than you in initiative.
But yes, at some point if the aggressor stops attacking and remains hidden "combat" ends but there is no set time frame or rule for this.
I'm guessing you're trying to do something with the rogue sap master ability that gets bonus damage for attacking a flat-footed person specifically (not just denied dex).
My generic advice here is: Pick up Shatter Defenses and use it and don't try to stealth your way into getting additional attacks against flat-footed AC.
Exactly what I'm building for. As for the 'not in-combat during surprise round' that was a bad explanation on my behalf, but you got what I was looking at. Thank you for the advice!
---Question: at what point is the target not in combat?---There is no way for a player to determine this. They have absolutely no say in this.
As a DM, I would treat someone as being "out-of-combat" (not being ready and effectively being flat-footed) when they no longer have a reason to think they're in combat or be ready for combat. Turning invisible does not automatically achieve this. Please remember that this is not a game where NPC:s takes arrows to the face to only a few seconds later conclude that it must have been a rat they heard.
Hmm, might have to try to work in an animal shape too! There are lots of noise rats after all.
---Question: at what point is the target not in combat?---There is no way for a player to determine this. They have absolutely no say in this.
As a DM, I would treat someone as being "out-of-combat" (not being ready and effectively being flat-footed) when they no longer have a reason to think they're in combat or be ready for combat. Turning invisible does not automatically achieve this. Please remember that this is not a game where NPC:s takes arrows to the face to only a few seconds later conclude that it must have been a rat they heard.
Like this?
You can be in initiative and be completely unaware of it. As it stands, your turn in initiative is simply doing whatever it is that you are doing. After 6 seconds of that, the other people get to act.
Remember, initiative order is simply a mechanic that allows for a turn-based rules set to simulate realistic combat. People are not literally waiting until their turn to get their 6 seconds of actions.
If you are unaware of an opponent, you are treated as flat footed against them. That does not mean you are flat footed, you are simply treated as flat footed against that opponent.
Like this?---Question: at what point is the target not in combat?---There is no way for a player to determine this. They have absolutely no say in this.
As a DM, I would treat someone as being "out-of-combat" (not being ready and effectively being flat-footed) when they no longer have a reason to think they're in combat or be ready for combat. Turning invisible does not automatically achieve this. Please remember that this is not a game where NPC:s takes arrows to the face to only a few seconds later conclude that it must have been a rat they heard.
Yep, that about sums it up.
This is why I don't like inquisitor judgments-- it's entirely up to the GM to tell you when you stop getting your bonus, and there's no real in-character justification.
This is why I don't like inquisitor judgments-- it's entirely up to the GM to tell you when you stop getting your bonus, and there's no real in-character justification.
Unless you have a jerk for a GM who says "All your opponents went invisible so combat is over. But now all the rogue pop-out and sneak attack you because you're flat-footed in this surprise round" it really isn't a issue that should come up.
And, if you do have that GM you should stop playing with them.
Having things left up to the GMs call is actually one of the best things in my opinion, except for when you have a GM who's a jerk.