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Several questions that seems to have conflicting answers on forums, that mostly arise from the "requisite ability score" line of scroll usage:
1.) Can a level three sorcerer use a scroll of summon monster 2 without any checks, even though he can't cast 2nd level spells yet?
2.)Which mental stat must be at least 12? He casts spells with charisma, but since arcane scrolls are made by wizards, does he need a 12 int? Does this differ between PFS and regular rules?
3.) Sorcerer gives up and hands the scroll to his rogue buddy. The rogue succeeds on his UMD check of 23 to "use the scroll". But, which attribute does the rogue need to have at least a 12 in? Summon monster is on the cleric list, too, so could he use Wisdom?
Several questions that seems to have conflicting answers on forums, that mostly arise from the "requisite ability score" line of scroll usage:
1.) Can a level three sorcerer use a scroll of summon monster 2 without any checks, even though he can't cast 2nd level spells yet?
Yes. He has a caster level as high as the caster level of the scroll.
2.)Which mental stat must be at least 12? He casts spells with charisma, but since arcane scrolls are made by wizards, does he need a 12 int? Does this differ between PFS and regular rules?
His choice of int, wis, charisma
3.) Sorcerer gives up and hands the scroll to his rogue buddy. The rogue succeeds on his UMD check of 23 to "use the scroll". But, which attribute does the rogue need to have at least a 12 in? Summon monster is on the cleric list, too, so could he use Wisdom?
His choice of int wis or charisma.
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1. Yes, a Sorcerer can use the scroll with a caster level check. As Per Core rulebook: If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. If the caster level check fails but no mishap occurs, the scroll is not expended. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell’s casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
2. A Sorcerer casting a spell that is on the Sorcerer spell list would use Cha.
2. The rogue has to Decipher the scroll first. Then,as per the Core rulebook in the UMD section: (Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.) so said rogue could use either Int or Cha.
I just asked a similar question and was told that if it's on your list you need to use your stat.
I just asked a similar question and was told that if it's on your list you need to use your stat.
I'm not sure why you wouldn't WANT to do that. Presumably you have enough of a stat in your class to cast something you can afford.
Well a multiclassed bloodrager that goes to 5 and then switches classes only gets level 1 spells. Spelleater doesn't need a positive charisma for it's stuff. So you could have gone a smart or wise bloodrager and never use charisma. Thus being able to use that int or wis for the scroll would be handy.
yes it's not optimized, but it's not crippled trying this, especially if the scroll casting worked out for you.
Well a multiclassed bloodrager that goes to 5 and then switches classes only gets level 1 spells. Spelleater doesn't need a positive charisma for it's stuff. So you could have gone a smart or wise bloodrager and never use charisma. Thus being able to use that int or wis for the scroll would be handy.
yes it's not optimized, but it's not crippled trying this, especially if the scroll casting worked out for you.
I think you need to pick one path from start to finish and stick with it.
Either you're a bloodrager who doesn't have the charisma score to cast it OR you're a nobody with the ability score to cast it.
Figure out which is the easier roll and make it.
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@Shelly:
1.) Would he need a caster level check? The sorcerer would have the same caster level as the wizard that made the scroll. Difference is that a 3rd level wizard can cast a 2nd level spell, while a 3rd level sorcerer cannot.
2.) Is that a PFS rule or Pathfinder in general? I haven't seen anywhere that adequately defines "requisite ability score".
3.) Why would a rogue be forced to use int or cha, when a cleric using the same scroll (in PFS) could cast the scroll with wis?
Or does the rogue get his choice of the three?
Of course he could emulate an ability score using UMD, but if he doesn't have to, then that's just another chance to fail.
Thank you all for your responses. I'm not trying to be pedantic for no reason. I just want a firm grasp of these rules, that feel like they didn't get enough clarification in print.
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1.) Would he need a caster level check? The sorcerer would have the same caster level as the wizard that made the scroll. Difference is that a 3rd level wizard can cast a 2nd level spell, while a 3rd level sorcerer cannot.
This is in the Core Rulebook.
It's why 4th level Paladins with Magical Knack can read scrolls of Bull's Strength.
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Okay, I'll work at trying to get over the whole "using scrolls of a level I can't cast yet" thing.
But, I feel like the remaining question remains valid. I also see this thread had been moved. Though, it WAS a PFS specific question.
Normal scrolls are made by specific classes, so they would require a specific ability score to use.
ie: arcane scrolls are made by wizards, therefore intelligence. (Unless you're told otherwise)
In PFS all scrolls are multipurpose, with no arcane, divine, or psychic modifier added to them.
I suppose it is easiest to say for a spellcaster to use their spellcasting Stat when activating scrolls, but what about UMD users?
What Stat would they use? Or do they always have to UMD a Stat add well?
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I understand that. That doesn't answer the question.
For a non-spellcasting class that is activating a scroll with UMD, what ability score do they use?
ie: if a rogue had 13 charisma, does he need to use UMD to emulate an ability score to cast a scroll of summon monster 3?
What if he had a wisdom of 13?
What about intelligence 13?
Since summon monster 3 is on the sorcerer, cleric, and wizard lists, any of those caster classes can use the same scroll (in PFS), but the stat that must be at least 13 is different.
So, what Stat does a non-spellcaster use? Does it vary?
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I actually attended PFS last night. There it was ruled that when using UMD to cast a spell, that the user must use INT if the spell is on the wizard list, WIS if it's on the cleric or druid list and not on the wizard list, and so forth down the line of progression like that.
So summon monster spells would require INT, even though it's one Wiz, Sorc, Cleric, and more spell lists.
I don't suppose you know of somewhere I could look for further clarification? Or was that just your understanding of the rules?
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I actually attended PFS last night. There it was ruled that when using UMD to cast a spell, that the user must use INT if the spell is on the wizard list, WIS if it's on the cleric or druid list and not on the wizard list, and so forth down the line of progression like that.
That is very much a table ruling, as the PFS House rules are unique and not super explicit. In my opinion, PFS scrolls are basically Schrodinger's scroll. They can be whatever you need them to be at the time.
If it was a problem for your UMD character, I'd ask the GM to reconsider their ruling. If you play with several GMs, you might want to bring it up to a group and ask for their opinions, or contact a local Venture Officer to offer some guidance.
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@KingOfAnything- It wasn't a problem. I don't have a character that uses a lot of UMD (yet). This was more for my own understanding. A question I had that I couldn't find a super explicit answer to.
I'm almost 100% certain if I were to ask some of the other GMs I'd get Azothath's kind of answer.
It's the one I tend to, personally. PFS tries to make their consumables easier, not harder.
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Several questions that seems to have conflicting answers on forums, that mostly arise from the "requisite ability score" line of scroll usage:
1.) Can a level three sorcerer use a scroll of summon monster 2 without any checks, even though he can't cast 2nd level spells yet?
2.)Which mental stat must be at least 12? He casts spells with charisma, but since arcane scrolls are made by wizards, does he need a 12 int? Does this differ between PFS and regular rules?
3.) Sorcerer gives up and hands the scroll to his rogue buddy. The rogue succeeds on his UMD check of 23 to "use the scroll". But, which attribute does the rogue need to have at least a 12 in? Summon monster is on the cleric list, too, so could he use Wisdom?
1 Not without checks. He'd either need a caster level check because his level isn't high enough for the spell if it's on his list, or a UMD check to cast a spell from a scroll. In terms of which is best, UMD has lower risks than the caster level check, but the caster level check has very high odds of success.
Caster level check DC would be 5 for this sorcerer spell, auto-failure on 1s. Failures get a DC 5 wisdom check to avoid a scroll mishap, which is very unpleasant.
UMD check DC would be 24 for the sorcerer spell, with only penalty being on a natural 1s, and even there, it would only prevent using that scroll for 24 hours.
2 The mental stat required is based on the scroll. Since PFS doesn't care, I'd let you pick whenever you want. I will note that since the spell could require a lower caster level in another class, you may opt to cast it as another class, rather than your own, and it might be easier that way, provided you had the correct attributes.
In example, the UMD check DC for the scroll would be 24 for a sorcerer (CHA based), 23 for a wizard (INT based), and 23 for a cleric (WIS based).
3 Yes, you could give up on the UMD checks and hand it to the rogue and they could use their required stats and UMD check to cast the spell.
That said, if you got the rare fail on the caster level check, and failed with wisdom check too, you'd run into major problems that would likely leave you unable to hand the scroll to the rogue.