I've recently fell in love with Umbral Strike and the idea of blasts that have nifty control/debuff rider effects tacked on.
I was wondering what examples of such spells you guys know, I'm aware of ear-piercing scream as another example.
Also what do you guys think of these spells as a nice option for some caster damage should casters not want to go heavy on optimizing for blasting. I agree with the philosophy of controlling/buffing/debuffing if characters don't want to go heavy for blasting but its sometimes nice to be able to hurt things. I'm specifically not interested in conjuring things being the solution to this.
You'd need to define what exactly would be grounds for parameters in regards to applying debuffs to your blasting effects, because simply applying something along the lines of "moves at half speed" or "damage now and damage over time," might not fit the same sort of debuffs you're exampling.
As a penultimate example, simply applying the Dazing Metamagic can essentially nullify enemies for multiple rounds at a time. Even if it's +3 spell level, a lot of people say it is the most overpowered debuff of any one spell (including insta-death), since all you have to do is hit them with the spell, have them fail the save (i.e. optimize your Save DCs), and then just let them sit and have your party members clean up.
To be fair though, if a blast is optimized well enough, having the extra rider effects becomes pointless, because they're already unconscious (or flat-out dead).
I've made a blasting guide which can give you a lot of insights into making blasting the best it can be.
While I don't personally disagree with adding insult ("Haha, you're dazed for X rounds!") to injury (TONS OF DAMAGE), the strength of one can invalidate the need for another. In my opinion, Control Wizards specialize in the former, and that's much easier (and more broken) to do. Blasting Wizards specialize in the latter, and that's more difficult (but more fun) to do.
But both work towards the same end, which is to trivialize the encounter.
In general cold spells have a tendency to make the victim staggered. Other than that the Sickening Spell and the Frightful Spell feats help if you're fine with raising the spell level.
(The less said about dazing spell the better though.)
You'd need to define what exactly would be grounds for parameters in regards to applying debuffs to your blasting effects, because simply applying something along the lines of "moves at half speed" or "damage now and damage over time," might not fit the same sort of debuffs you're exampling.
As a penultimate example, simply applying the Dazing Metamagic can essentially nullify enemies for multiple rounds at a time. Even if it's +3 spell level, a lot of people say it is the most overpowered debuff of any one spell (including insta-death), since all you have to do is hit them with the spell, have them fail the save (i.e. optimize your Save DCs), and then just let them sit and have your party members clean up.
To be fair though, if a blast is optimized well enough, having the extra rider effects becomes pointless, because they're already unconscious (or flat-out dead).
I've made a blasting guide which can give you a lot of insights into making blasting the best it can be.
While I don't personally disagree with adding insult ("Haha, you're dazed for X rounds!") to injury (TONS OF DAMAGE), the strength of one can invalidate the need for another. In my opinion, Control Wizards specialize in the former, and that's much easier (and more broken) to do. Blasting Wizards specialize in the latter, and that's more difficult (but more fun) to do.
But both work towards the same end, which is to trivialize the encounter.
To answer your first question basically anything that hampers the actions of the person hit by the spell would fit what I'm looking for so half speed yes, taking more damage no. I and as I am guessing you are already aware (judging by the fact you have a blasting guide) adding on some meager damage over time isn't a very effective or exciting.
As I said I'm not to interested in optimizing towards blasting I.E taking metamagic feats to tack onto your blasts or carrying around very expensive rods. I've made characters like that in the passed and I'm interested in looking at something slightly more generalist something a character might carry in their back pocket should they want to do some damage.
I'm specifically looking for spells that come with this stuff tacked on, not taking it one myself.
Funnily enough I'd probably say that battering blast as mentioned in your guide qualifies.
The Create Pit line combines damage and a debuff really well. They can have weird utilitty uses too.
Most 'blasts' on the witch list come with riders, starting with Ear-Piercing Scream and Snowball and going on up to Stormbolts. Practically all of these are on the wizard list as well.
There's going to be a lot less overlap with other lists but the druid list comes packed with debuffs and combined damage/debuffs.
Rime Spell (or Chilling Amplification) makes cold spells into better debuffs at a relatively low cost. They both trigger on damage rather than failing a save which makes them a bit more reliable. Yes, they're a feat or a (cheap; 3000 gp for minor rime spell) metamagic rod but sometimes even a generalist can find it worthwhile to spend a little.
The Create Pit line combines damage and a debuff really well. They can have weird utilitty uses too.
how did I forget create pit .-. my friend had a character that liked to create pits to sleep in at night xD
Most 'blasts' on the witch list come with riders, starting with Ear-Piercing Scream and Snowball and going on up to Stormbolts. Practically all of these are on the wizard list as well.
ooo Snowball is a good one, I was aware of stormbolts already actually I just really don't like it xD I think because to get the best out of it the caster needs to have a good number of enemies within 30ft of her, which is quite scary at level 15 when the spell comes online XD
There's going to be a lot less overlap with other lists but the druid list comes packed with debuffs and combined damage/debuffs.
Druids get stormbolt don't they xD
if you go Mythic I believe Mythic call lightning can be very strong but thats based off a fuzzy memory.
Rime Spell (or Chilling Amplification) makes cold spells into better debuffs at a relatively low cost. They both trigger on damage rather than failing a save which makes them a bit more reliable. Yes, they're a feat or a (cheap; 3000 gp for minor rime spell) metamagic rod but sometimes even a generalist can find it worthwhile to spend a little.
Rime is probably the best metamagic feat for this sort of thing I have a few problems with it though, for one cold damage isn't the bestand especially in the case of prep casters it takes them thining that a higher level spell (which is probably normally better) isn't getting prepared today because today they might need to be able to eek out some nice damage. The rod circumvents this I supposed although un-invested to make that rod work you're probably looking at 5D6 damage at best with Rime on top, which isn't really very worthwhile by the time you're doing it.
if you're into 3pp, basically the entire destruction sphere in Spheres of power is this.
Stormbolts is a spell I know only from the spell lists. I can see the problem, but there was no personal experience to let me know it before I listed it.
Where I have seen Rime Spell used effectively is spell stored on Frigid Touch, or by a magus with Frostbite. Or on Frost Fall with goons around to stop the enemy leaving. All are minor rod-able.
if you're into 3pp, basically the entire destruction sphere in Spheres of power is this.
I'm afraid I haven't done much to do with 3pp, my DM doesn't let us use it without permission so I don't bother.
Stormbolts is a spell I know only from the spell lists. I can see the problem, but there was no personal experience to let me know it before I listed it.
Where I have seen Rime Spell used effectively is spell stored on Frigid Touch, or by a magus with Frostbite. Or on Frost Fall with goons around to stop the enemy leaving. All are minor rod-able.
Oooo Frost fall is a pretty nifty idea, not exactly what I was looking for but I like it a lot.
I would definitely refer your DM to the Spheres of Power subsystem. Once I saw it, I turned my back on Vancian casting and never looked back.
I don't necessarily want to turn my back on Vancian casting lol.
I would definitely refer your DM to the Spheres of Power subsystem. Once I saw it, I turned my back on Vancian casting and never looked back.
Please remember: This is a Paizo thread. 3PP belongs in that particular forum.
Veering away from spells (because I don't know them that well), blasting with nifty bits is pretty much the entirety of a kineticist's offensive MO.
Veering away from spells (because I don't know them that well), blasting with nifty bits is pretty much the entirety of a kineticist's offensive MO.
Yeah I made a Kineticist recently but I haven't had chance to play him :( they are indeed blasts with nifty bits but as you said that's pretty much their whole bag where as I am looking for a sort of side ally skill in a pinch :P