Howdy everyone. I haven't played a table top game in years but I met up with some of my old friends I used to play with and we decided to start a Pathfinder game.
I really liked the Bloodrager so I rolled one of them and I'm currently lvl 4. It's been a long time since I've been in combat and I wanted some suggestions on the feat progression and my thought process on why I've chosen them.
Lvl 1 - Power Attk & Cleave (human - extra feet at lvl 1)
lvl 3 - Scribe Scroll - I jumped quickly from 3rd into 4th lvl, so I took this because I jumped into 4th and can now cast spells. I thought this would be a good feat to allow me additional spells. I have also several other feats later that I can hopefully combine into my scroll crafting.
Lvl 5 – Arcane Strike
Lvl 6 – Bloodline feat – Retrain power attack for this bloodline feat slot and take Vital Strike with my now available feat slot from lvl 1. I’m not sure that this is completely legit and the retraining in this manner will be something that will be confirmed with my DM. I’m still interested to know if you would allow this as a DM.
Lvl 7 – Blooded Arcane Strike
Lvl 9 – Bloodline Feat – Retrain cleave for this bloodline feat and take Riving Strike with the open feat slot.
Regular feat slot – Rage Casting. I’m hoping to use this in order to boost my spells, but mainly to boost my scrolls for DC and Duration boosts. I don’t want to sacrifice any HP during battle as my AC is not that great to begin with. I would rather take the hit while scribing a scroll and recover them by resting.
Lvl 11 – Improved Vital Strike
Lvl 13 – Improved Natural Attack – I posed this feat to my DM an he is hesitant to allow me to do so because of the bestial aspect, which raised by natural attack by one die category already. In order to sweeten the deal, I figured I would propose a homebrew BAB req of 13.
Lvl 15 – Cleaving Smash – Weapon trick feat. I just like the idea of my two handed weapon being able to apply vital strike and imp vital strike damage to cleaved targets.
Lvl 17 – Greater Vital Strike
Other notable feats I have considered:
Raging Concentration – I would think that concentration checks are going to be an issue but I would like to have your thoughts. Keep in mind I will be utilizing Enlarge and Long arm for reach so I should be pretty far away from melee but ranged/spells will still be an issue.
Furious Spell – I believe my interpretation is correct in that I will not need to be bloodraging in order to use this feat. I which case, I can further boost my spells/scrolls.
Extra Rage Power – Good for what ails you – Since the bloodrage counts as the barb’s rage for prerequisites, I thought this might be a great way to get multiple saving throws even though it’s only for certain types of conditions.
Recovered Rage – I like the idea of being able to regain some spent rounds of rage. Especially when I have my breath weapon and can hit multiple creatures at once. However, I feel like this might be a waste since I’m always taking extra rounds of rage as my favored class bonus.
I would really like to find a way to be able to attack with my wings that I get at lvl 12 as I believe bestial aspect will also increase the damage on these. However, I have searched the feats and can’t find anything there. I’m not sure if a magical item would grant the use of my wings for attacks.
I know this is a limited picture to what I see as a whole in the Draconic progression but thank you for your thoughts.
My thoughts:
Level 3: Scribe Scroll is not very useful for a spontaneous caster, and especially not for a bloodrager.
Level 6: Normal retraining rules do allow you to replace feats from leveling with feats you meet the prerequisites for now, but did not then. However, you do have to pay gold.
Level 13: Effective size increases don't stack, so the feat wouldn't help. In addition, it's a Monster feat, so a GM is well within their rights to say it's unavailable to a PC. Finally, sweetening a deal by imposing a new prerequisite that you happen to meet anyways and doesn't impair you isn't exactly fair.
Bestial aspect says nothing about a size increase, so I don't think there's any interference there. Really, even Improved Natural Attack doesn't say it's actually a 'size increase', but just that the die 'increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category' - in other words, it's referencing a size increase instead of granting it.
A much larger problem is the fact that you can only apply Bestial Aspect to a natural attack that you gain through a polymorph spell, while Improved Natural Attack applies to one of a creature's own natural attacks. It's debatable whether you can even take INA with temporary supernatural claws.
Even if you do get a half-decent natural attack die, I don't think there's any way to get a 1.5xSTR on it, which makes Power Attack and Vital Strike and Cleave much weaker. Just going Enlarge Person with a greatsword in two hands is probably a far, far more powerful attack to use with Cleaving Smash.
If you really want to do the natural attack thing on a Bloodrager, I'd focus on stacking up multiple natural attacks by using Monstrous Physique I to turn into a gargoyle (eventually). You can't enhance your draconic claws with Bestial Aspect when you rage and they essentially replace the gargoyle claws, but you can at least apply it to gore or bite.
AFAI can tell, the only ways to gain wing attacks is through Form of the Dragon, the Aasimar ECL 11 Metallic Wings feat, and the Dread Wing +5 full plate only armor enhancement.
Note that Dread Wing halves your armor bonus when employed.
Thank you Burnscar... I'll check those out.
Level 3: Scribe Scroll is not very useful for a spontaneous caster, and especially not for a bloodrager.
Level 6: Normal retraining rules do allow you to replace feats from leveling with feats you meet the prerequisites for now, but did not then. However, you do have to pay gold.
Level 13: Effective size increases don't stack, so the feat wouldn't help. In addition, it's a Monster feat, so a GM is well within their rights to say it's unavailable to a PC. Finally, sweetening a deal by imposing a new prerequisite that you happen to meet anyways and doesn't impair you isn't exactly fair.
I appreciate the critique. I guess I wanted to scribe scrolls just because I'm concerned about my buffs being dispelled and I thought it would be a nice way to conserve the limited spells I have plus boost a few for higher DC's/duration. Can you offer suggestions on other routes I should consider over this?
Of course the DM can say it's unavailable to a PC. However, that's not why my DM is hesitant. He says I qualify for it and it being a monster feat doesn't bother him. He thinks I will be OP for the group and I agree. That's why I wanted to sort of self impose the BAB requirement to see if he would potentially allow it later in the game.
I read both (Bestial Aspect and Imp Nat Attk) very carefully and I would agree that BA is an enhancement bonus (because it clearly states that it is). However, I.N.A. states in the description that the damage increases "as if the creature's size had increased by one catagory". To me that means it hasn't increased but the damage is rolled as though it had. I could have scewed my interpretation favorably and if so, I will need to go another route.
A much larger problem is the fact that you can only apply Bestial Aspect to a natural attack that you gain through a polymorph spell, while Improved Natural Attack applies to one of a creature's own natural attacks. It's debatable whether you can even take INA with temporary supernatural claws.
Well put... that is a very big issue and I completely overlooked that. The bottom of BA states "If the rageshaper's bloodrage powers already grant natural attacks or alternate modes of movement, then the bonuses granted by bestial aspect also apply to these bloodrage powers." So I think this will bump the claws up, but your point about the INA boosting temp raged claws is spot on.
Even if you do get a half-decent natural attack die, I don't think there's any way to get a 1.5xSTR on it, which makes Power Attack and Vital Strike and Cleave much weaker. Just going Enlarge Person with a greatsword in two hands is probably a far, far more powerful attack to use with Cleaving Smash.
You are right on there. I will be carrying/using a greatsword , sorry I didn't clarify in my OP.
If you're looking for a way to store spells for later use, try Inscribe Magical Tattoo? And if you can still change your character a bit, Metamagic Rager might let you add metamagic feats to the stored spells without changing their caster level (depending on the DM). There is also VMC with Magus to give you another 18 levels of spell storage with the Spell-Scars arcana.
I do need to look into the tatoo further. For some reason I thought they were expensive and that scrolls would be a cheaper alternative plus I could have several scrolls but I think the tatoo route may be the better option if scribing scrolls is a waste for spell conservation. Funny you mentioned the MM rager because I had fully built this char out as an MM to do just that. However, the MM rager can only apply one MM feat to a spell and it just seemed as though I was giving up a lot from the other archetypes to apply one MM affect to a spell.
Thank you very much for your time and thoughts in putting my char together. Please keep chiming in if you see additional issues to the build.
Not sure how I missed the other side of Bestial Aspect... If that makes Draconic claws a 2d6 by level 8 (3d6 with Enlarge Person), that's not bad at all.
Is the plan really to carry an expensive greatsword around for Cleaving Smash, and then drop it to use claws?
A Bodywrap of Mighty Striking can be very useful if using claw fighting, instead of needing Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Feral Combat Training: Claw might open up some interesting options for focusing on just claws. Like taking a level of Master of Many Styles Monk and building some kind of monstrous Dragon Style/Ferocity claw-fighter.
Not sure how I missed the other side of Bestial Aspect... If that makes Draconic claws a 2d6 by level 8 (3d6 with Enlarge Person), that's not bad at all.
Is the plan really to carry an expensive greatsword around for Cleaving Smash, and then drop it to use claws?
A Bodywrap of Mighty Striking can be very useful if using claw fighting, instead of needing Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Feral Combat Training: Claw might open up some interesting options for focusing on just claws. Like taking a level of Master of Many Styles Monk and building some kind of monstrous Dragon Style/Ferocity claw-fighter.
The great sword just brings some versatility I thought. If I'm not raged then I will be using the sword. Plus it helps with reach when I'm enlarged/long armed and for charging. I'm also carrying a lance as well (maybe a little overkill on the weapons). That was the thought.
When I enlarge, wouldn't the damage bump to 2d8? And just to double check I'm reading the rules correctly, two claw attacks in a full attack so that would be 4d8 (provided I hit with both claws) by lvl 8 with pretty good reach enlarged and long armed. Have I read that correctly?
I looked at Feral and I felt as though the amount of feats I was going to use was going to cut into my spell stuff but I'll revisit. I do like the flavor of Dragon Style. I don't need to be completely optimized (otherwise I would have chosen another bloodline).
I get the feeling that using feats on my spells is a waste but the spell buffs are nice and since the bloodrager gets full casterlevel, I thought a little bolstering would sure them up for dispel and the like. We do have a bard in the group and he will be helping me with saving throw boosts but without having played in a while, are we going to face a spellcaster that is going to over power my buffs with ease?
I get the feeling I'm dumping two feats into my spell theory just to bump a DC check on a caster we may face from a 7 to a 10 or something just as worthless. I guess I could always retrain if it doesn't work out.
Thanks for the help BB.
Bestial Aspect has rather odd wording. I was just reading 'by one die' as one normal step up the natural attack ladder, but I'm not certain. If you grow large 2d6 claws, 'by one die' is even more odd sounding.
I wouldn't be all that worried about caster level vs. enemies trying to dispel your buffs. Out of all the nasty things a caster can do on their turn, attempting to dispel a low-level Bloodrager buff spell is a pretty weak move anyhow - they're spending an action in the heat of battle to maybe drop your stats a bit, while you can spend an action to just put it back if it matters enough.
Great observation. I too saw the damage increase as you did. Therefore a 1d6 would take the next step up to a 1d8. However, as you have pointed out, I would almost now look at it as adding "one die". Meaning a 1d6 would increase to a 2d6. Interesting...
Well after checking out Angel Hunters post about the bloodrager DD, and realizing that the blood of dragons progresses the draconic bloodline features, it seems that this has more positives than negatives. I think I will rebuild one of these since I haven't progressed too far and with the extra spells and your points addressing my concern about the debuff issue I now feel comfortable dropping the scribe scroll and other feats associated with boosting my magic.
Thank you for you help here on all points. Greatly appreciated.
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In case you haven't seen this, here's a fun headache that comes from taking Improved Natural Attack on a Rageshaper and casting Enlarge Person. There are 5 different ways your GM could stack effects on your claws. Also, this is going off the fairly common interpretation of RS that it adds another whole die. And this is at level 8 when our claws get better.
#1 Base:1d8>Size:2d6>INA:3d6>RS:4d6
#2 Base:1d8>Size:2d6>RS:3d6>INA:4d6
#3 Base:1d8>INA:2d6>Size:2d8>RS:3d8
#4 Base:1d8>INA:2d6>RS:3d6>Size:4d6
#5 Base:1d8>RS:2d8>Size:4d6>INA:6d6
#5 is best for us, but as a GM i'd probably go with #4.
I think reading 'increase by one die' as 'add another die (of the same kind?)' is pretty aggressively optimistic; it's sort of like reading 'increase by one number' as turning a 3 into a 6 because "hey, a 3 is 'one number'!". It's poorly worded, but even if you assume that 'by one die' literally means to add another die, it says nothing about what kind of die to actually add.
The FAQ on stacking size increases would suggest that Improved Natural Attack and Bestial Aspect won't stack anyhow, due to the 'effective size increase' and 'similar language' clause.
Sweet, that will be a fun conversation... My guess is that the RS archetype would take precedent, then the INA feat and then the spell but that's just my guess. 4d6 if I'm not mistaken?
I like the movement that VS provides but with my str built up, I'm think there's some damage missed there. With my reach I think it would be better if my character were able to lock down threats to my teammates and I'm not sure that VS is a great choice since I will have great reach (movement aspect diminished?). I'm wondering if I should move toward crit fishing (imp crit + keen greatsword + whatever crit focus) to apply conditions or apply them through power attk and save natural attacks for when I form of the dragon...
Edit - Just read that Keen and Imp Crit doesn't stack.. scratch that.
Another thought, when I'm able to use Cleaving Smash (two hand weapon trick), the crit focus feats will give me two chances for them to be applied plus add the VS damage. Still not sure if this is optimized though.
A lot to consider. I enjoy it though. Makes me wish I had gotten back together with my group and started playing PF years ago.
Thoughts anyone?
I think reading 'increase by one die' as 'add another die (of the same kind?)' is pretty aggressively optimistic; it's sort of like reading 'increase by one number' as turning a 3 into a 6 because "hey, a 3 is 'one number'!". It's poorly worded, but even if you assume that 'by one die' literally means to add another die, it says nothing about what kind of die to actually add.
The FAQ on stacking size increases would suggest that Improved Natural Attack and Bestial Aspect won't stack anyhow, due to the 'effective size increase' and 'similar language' clause.
Yeah, I'll have to throw that out to my DM and let him make the call but comparing the wording of the two (BA and INA), I would assume the BA doesn't apply a size increase.
On that thought, would the enlarge person increase work with INA since size doesn't stack? My guess is that enlarge is an actual size increase where as INA is an enhancement?
The whole text of the FAQ is:
Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” ). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).
Basically, the idea is that you can stack one real size increase and one effect that improves a damage die.
I think the purpose is pretty obviously to resolve issues of improvement stacking and dice-cheesing; it limits something like a large Rageshaper's claw attack to dealing large greatsword damage with INA (assuming you're allowed to take it), or large bastard sword damage with their Bestial Aspect. Which if you think about it is already one hell of a claw.
Man BB quit killing my destroy and consume all character.
Seriously though, good point. I'm all about building something legit and not trying to interpret the rules as I want to see them, so thx.
One would think I would read or search the FAQ's more... but hey who needs that?
The FAQs giveth, and the FAQs taketh-away... well, mostly just taketh-away. I didn't realize until I looked at the FAQ again that it covered as much as it does. As annoying as it is though, there's something nice and refreshing about clarity.
I wouldn't worry too much about a face-clawing Rageshaper not destroying enough.
even if it only increases it a die step, it still ends up being 2d8. that means your claws hit as hard as a large bastard sword, so still pretty cool.
And, with claw attacks, you always get two, right?
even if it only increases it a die step, it still ends up being 2d8. that means your claws hit as hard as a large bastard sword, so still pretty cool.And, with claw attacks, you always get two, right?
On a full attack, yes; if you move action move, no.