So the Archetype changes all your class abilities to Charisma, including the DCs of stunning Fist.
Any of the scaled fist's class abilities that make calculations based on her Wisdom (including Bonus Feats with DC or uses per day such as Stunning Fist) are instead based on Wisdom.
Thanks for your input.
Dont have the Scaled Fist in front of me but it comes down to whether the Stunning Fist Class Feature itself is altered, or if a secondary class feature unrelated to Stunning Fist makes the change to change to Charisma based.
No for the former, yes for the later.
Draconic Might: Any of the scaled fist’s class abilities that make calculations based on her Wisdom (including bonus feats with DCs or uses per day, such as Stunning Fist, but not Wisdom-based skills or Will saving throws) are instead based on her Charisma.
I think that's the relevant ability but without the book I can't be sure the wording is right. As long as this or any other change doesn't overlap you should be good.
Sorry should have mentioned that that is the relevant piece of rules text which I stated in the second line of my above post.
My intuition was the same as you guyses. Stunning fist is not called out explicitly instead there is a Class Feature which calls Stunning Fist out as an example of a Bonus Feat that is altered.
I will warn you may see some rulings against this since it is altering a host of class features thus you can't trade out any of those features.
Since Scaled Fist doesn't explicitly say that "this ability replaces" or "this ability alters" stunning fist, you are good. This is usually seen at the end of the new feature.
I'm pretty sure that wording isn't strictly required...cause you never know whether or not it was intended. At least that's what I've read around here previously.
the wording isn't required.
APG faq, under classes, archetype stacking... is the topic.
So the Archetype changes all your class abilities to Charisma, including the DCs of stunning Fist.
Any of the scaled fist's class abilities that make calculations based on her Wisdom (including Bonus Feats with DC or uses per day such as Stunning Fist) are instead based on Wisdom.
Thanks for your input.
By RAW, the answer is no, no two archetypes can even look at, smell, touch, or otherwise modify the same class feature. So this may well mean that Scaled Fist isn't compatible with any other archetype.
Hmm, archetypes changed the relevant ability score before. Wildblooded sorcerer does (Empyreal, Sage), so this archetype is then incompatible with any other? Because all sorcerer abilities are affected... The same applies to Cha based druids, witches and kineticists.
But let's go back to monk. There is the martial artist archeype, providing +1 to Stunning Fist DC, without officially replacing / altering the ability. Does this mean he can't trade it out either?
I mean, Scaled Fist can be used as powergaming tool. But reducing the options to combine it with other archetypes is not the right answer to that. Focussing on one stat has drawbacks anyway - increasing costs at point buy, more dependant on according score boosters, more vulnerable to score damage / drain etc..
Raising the DC of the ability is altering it. The words alter and replace do not need to appear for a feature to be altered. You make some good points, which are possibly reasonable and balanced. But per the sited faq, raw says no.
Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
This is making a change to any monk feature that works off of Wis, so if your archetype is also modifying any of those including stunning fist AC bonus or such then its a no go.
Wildblooded archetypes aren't compatible with most other archetypes (none that I've found, but I haven't looked that hard), but it is because wildblooded changes almost everything.
Casting stat changes alter Spellcasting. If that's the only change, then that hypothetical archetype is compatible with any archetype that does not change Spellcasting.
Increasing the DC is altering a class ability and makes it ineligible to be traded out with a second archetype.
The Scaled Fist change isn't just a Spellcasting stat change. It's an alteration of every ability that uses Wisdom, including bonus feats (which Stunning Fist is).
It is not done for "balance," it's a general rule to prevent unintended consequences when mixing archetypes (and saves the writers from having to check every possible archetype combinations).
I think your safe if the only cross over is the bonus feat pool since those aren't all affected, and you might not ever take one of the chosen feats.
The Scaled Fist has a separate alteration of the Bonus Feats list, so other archetypes that alter Bonus Feats are a no go anyway.
Hmm rereading the FAQ I sort of have to agree with the general sentiment that it prolly is not supposed to work, which is kinda too bad ...