In cases like this, always fall back on that most key of all the senses: the common one.
Who are you talking to? Will they be upset, or will they know you're just using it give context? If you're not being rude to anyone, call them whatever you will - just be polite.
Also, in-world, you could have a villain (or just unpleasant person) refer to them as gypsies. This lets them see the perception of the Varisians, as well as showing the villain/unpleasant person to be unpleasant.
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In Spain, "gitanos" are generally less marginalized than in other parts of Europe (not saying that they aren't, but often less so). The music, dancing and bullfighting aspects of Spanish Romani culture are seen by many there as "essentially Spanish", instead as seen as "alien". In other countries with large Romani groups, such as Romania, the divide between the Romani and the non-Romani population is massive.I know quite a few Spaniards who I work with, and they seem to take great pride in their Gypsy background and call themselves Gypsies. That it is a slur word has never been raised by them, they describe it more as representative of being more roguish than bad, and find the whole thing rather humorous.
I suppose it comes down to 'depends on your audience'.
Almost as large as the divide between the Hungarian, Moldavian, and the majority Romanian ethnic groups. Despite the simmilarities as they might appear in English spellings, Romani are not Romanians, their origins actually derive from the Indian subcontinent. Whereas the majority of the Romanian ethnic group will proudly point out their Roman, i.e. Latin origins.
It should also be noted that aside from Jews, when it came to ethnic groups, Romani topped high on the favorite list for Nazi ovens. Anti-Romani sentiment has also been a long standing tradition in Europe, and for pretty much the same reason... their refusal to assimilate.
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Wow, interesting reading.
We obviously don't have Gypsies here in Australia, so the idea it is a 'slur' has never once come up in a conversation.
I know quite a few Spaniards who I work with, and they seem to take great pride in their Gypsy background and call themselves Gypsies. That it is a slur word has never been raised by them, they describe it more as representative of being more roguish than bad, and find the whole thing rather humorous.
I suppose it comes down to 'depends on your audience'.
I'm in Australia too. I asked around a bit and nobody I spoke to realised it came with the same negative connotations as other racial slang words often do.
(Although I think there's pretty much no ethnic group with literally no presence in Australia. Somewhere, I'm betting there's an Australian Romani Cultural Festival).
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Wow, interesting reading.
We obviously don't have Gypsies here in Australia, so the idea it is a 'slur' has never once come up in a conversation.
I know quite a few Spaniards who I work with, and they seem to take great pride in their Gypsy background and call themselves Gypsies. That it is a slur word has never been raised by them, they describe it more as representative of being more roguish than bad, and find the whole thing rather humorous.
I suppose it comes down to 'depends on your audience'.
I'm in Australia too. I asked around a bit and nobody I spoke to realised it came with the same negative connotations as other racial slang words often do.
(Although I think there's pretty much no ethnic group with literally no presence in Australia. Somewhere, I'm betting there's an Australian Romani Cultural Festival).
Unless you're on the wrong side of ethnic discrimination, you tend to be a lot less likely to be aware of it.
According to the world cenus, Australia is pretty much at the bottom with an estimtated population range of 5,000 to 25,000. (Compared to a possible 1,000,000 in the United States and twice that in Romania itself, and one and a half million in Spain.)
Unless you're on the wrong side of ethnic discrimination, you tend to be a lot less likely to be aware of it.
Also remember that different cultures can have different meanings for the same word - some word that could be a slur in one culture could be a friendly thing to say in another - see "c**t" in America versus the same word in Australia.
Almost as large as the divide between the Hungarian, Moldavian, and the majority Romanian ethnic groups. Despite the simmilarities as they might appear in English spellings, Romani are not Romanians, their origins actually derive from the Indian subcontinent. Whereas the majority of the Romanian ethnic group will proudly point out their Roman, i.e. Latin origins.In Spain, "gitanos" are generally less marginalized than in other parts of Europe (not saying that they aren't, but often less so). The music, dancing and bullfighting aspects of Spanish Romani culture are seen by many there as "essentially Spanish", instead as seen as "alien". In other countries with large Romani groups, such as Romania, the divide between the Romani and the non-Romani population is massive.I know quite a few Spaniards who I work with, and they seem to take great pride in their Gypsy background and call themselves Gypsies. That it is a slur word has never been raised by them, they describe it more as representative of being more roguish than bad, and find the whole thing rather humorous.
I suppose it comes down to 'depends on your audience'.
I'm sorry? My point was to Shifty about his Spanish coworkers that are proud of their heritage and then apparently uses the word "gypsy" about themselves. In other words, Romani are generally seen differently in Spain than in e.g. Romania. I know perfectly well that Romania != Romani, I'm not an idiot.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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Don't use the word because it's a racial slur.
People whose heritage makes them a target of a slur may reclaim it if they choose to. This is similar to how black people can reclaim the n word if they choose, but it doesn't make it less of a slur if used by someone of another race.
Don't use a racial slur if you're not reclaiming it. Do you have an opinion on whether it should be used at all? That's cool, but unless you belong to the community who is able to reclaim that word, it's not your place to join that conversation.
Yeah but the Gypsies in Australia apparently call themselves Gypsies, and encourage the use of the term widely and by all.
So whats the go?
Do we tell them to stop promoting the word which they wish to use to define and display their heritage?
Yeah but the Gypsies in Australia apparently call themselves Gypsies, and encourage the use of the term widely and by all.
So whats the go?
Go with common sense and kindness, and you'll go far. If it's not hurting anyone, it's fine - even if some white savior wants to speak over actual Romani who say it's fine.
Go with common sense and kindness, and you'll go far. If it's not hurting anyone, it's fine - even if some white savior wants to speak over actual Romani who say it's fine.
Pretty much my line of thinking.
If someone gets offended then they can feel free to say so, and we can have a chat to clear the air, and then move on. Not like we then have to have a knife fight over it or something. They can call me 'convict' back and we can both laugh and move on.
People give you blank looks when you describe them as Roma.
People give you blank looks when you describe them as Roma.
"Wait, they're a type of tomato?"
Gorbacz gave pretty good explanations above about this ethnical group, only you can replace "slavic" with european actually.
It´s a nice showcase for how difficult things can get in fiction, when it´s connected too closely to real events.
I´m not really a fan of some varision flavors for that reason and glad the Scarni faction is more or less history.
Better bring back the Latnern Lodge and Tian Xia!
I´m not really a fan of some varision flavors for that reason and glad the Scarni faction is more or less history.
Better bring back the Latnern Lodge and Tian Xia!
I would have liked a replacement 'shady' faction as a replacement though.
The Exchange isn't quite the same.
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My group and I just finished Rise of the Runelords here in Sweden, and I as the GM actually downplayed a lot of the stereotypical Romani/Varisian parts, especially the Szcarni. We have many "EU immigrants" here; Romani people coming to beg in the streets. They're travelling here across Europe from the new EU member countries Romania and Bulgaria, where they are living under very poor conditions, and while they are here in Sweden they live in cars and/or build shanty towns in parks or in the woods.
Pathfinder is a US game, produced in the bubble of US culture, and when it comes to Romani I'm sure I was more or less living in the same kind of bubble too, ten years ago. But the Varisian caricature was kind of hitting a little too close to home for us when we see destitute Romani people here every day now.
N.B. That's just how we felt, I'm not implying that everyone else should react the same.
Yeah but the Gypsies in Australia apparently call themselves Gypsies, and encourage the use of the term widely and by all.
So whats the go?
Do we tell them to stop promoting the word which they wish to use to define and display their heritage?
Well...this is not an Australian site (even if a fair number of Aussies post here), and neither of those individuals I assume are posters. So kind of irrelevant for Roma and related groups are discussed on the board, or by folks.
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Do we tell them to stop promoting the word which they wish to use to define and display their heritage?
They get to refer to themselves any way they want. But that doesn't give outsiders permission to use the word(s). There's a difference between someone calling themselves 'slur' and someone else using the same word to describe the same person.
Well...this is not an Australian site (even if a fair number of Aussies post here), and neither of those individuals I assume are posters. So kind of irrelevant for Roma and related groups are discussed on the board, or by folks.Yeah but the Gypsies in Australia apparently call themselves Gypsies, and encourage the use of the term widely and by all.
So whats the go?
Do we tell them to stop promoting the word which they wish to use to define and display their heritage?
I think there's a relevant and related point, even if it isn't directly applicable to the OP.
I'm also in Australia (and want to claim that the word has no negative connotation here - although I take Drahliana's point that I probably wouldn't know if there was). I'm still not sure what my approach should be. In terms of practical effect, it's pretty much irrelevant - I'm unlikely to ever play with anyone other than the half dozen or so in my current RPG circle and I've know them all for thirty/forty years, so there's pretty negligible chance of offense which can't be resolved and none of them are of Romani descent anyhow.
I find myself wondering if my stance should change though - obviously I now know not to use the word in Europe (or America, by the sounds). But as a general rule: should my usage of language in Australia be guided by subtext in other countries?
It feels like it should - but that also seems like an impossibly high bar to clear.
I'm reminded of the "Bastards of Golarion" book - when that came out some people expressed concern at the curse/swear word in the title and I was once more completely surprised. Bastard is almost a term of endearment in Australia. It seemed right to ignore that objection in my daily life, but seems less right to ignore the European/American take on gypsy.
I find myself wondering if my stance should change though - obviously I now know not to use the word in Europe (or America, by the sounds). But as a general rule: should my usage of language in Australia be guided by subtext in other countries?
It feels like it should - but that also seems like an impossibly high bar to clear.
I'm reminded of the "Bastards of Golarion" book - when that came out some people expressed concern at the curse/swear word in the title and I was once more completely surprised. Bastard is almost a term of endearment in Australia. It seemed right to ignore that objection in my daily life, but seems less right to ignore the European/American take on gypsy.
As a professional writer, you always use the style, tone, and vocabulary appropriate for the audience you're trying to reach.
If you know something about a style, tone, phrase, or word that leads you to believe that some people would be offended, only you can decide if those people are part of your intended audience.
And I'm not talking about the affected group alone. I personally would be offended by someone using the n-word, no matter what my race.
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If a G-rated Disney movie can get away with calling them "gypsies" in the 1990s, what problem is there calling a fictional group that seems to fill in those stereotype fill in those stereotypes.
Disney got away with blackface in the day as well, so I guess no one should complain about that either.
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If a G-rated Disney movie can get away with calling them "gypsies" in the 1990s, what problem is there calling a fictional group that seems to fill in those stereotype fill in those stereotypes.
The fact that people have continued to use a slur without realizing it until recently does not, in fact, make it less of a slur. This is not how language works. Or culture. Or slurs.
Heck, in the 1960s or 1970s, you could point to equally recent Disney movies with extraordinarily racist caricatures of Asian people and Native Americans, or to 'Song of the South'. Now, you can argue that Hunchback of Notre Dame was done 40 or 50 years later (which is true), but awareness of 'gypsy' as a pejorative in popular culture is a way more recent phenomenon than awareness of how and why the other things I mention here are bad.
Heck, the Szcarni are basically the ugly racist versions of Romani people while most other Varisians are the more romanticized version.
Sczarni are really as much a Mafia caricature as they are of the bad side of Romani culture. Or of the criminal groups that inevitably arise from any persecuted minority, really.
I think over in the US, the term isn't seen as a racial slur because its a mostly European thing
This is probably true, and it explains the term's use. That doesn't in any way make that term acceptable, though.
I suggest that you take the temperature of your group before you use the term. If they aren't going to react negatively to the term, you might use it, understanding that it is a pejorative to many.
Some groups won't care, and others will care out of proportion to the event. As always, individual tables will vary. When in doubt, use a longer definition of Varisians and see if that gives them all they need to know.
I'm no expert, and an American, but there are lots of problems with the nomenclature.
Most of the time that I try to talk about...itinerant peoples traditionally living in wagons in Central and Eastern Europe I will say "Roma and Sinti" and most people have no idea what I am talking about, so I end up saying, "You know, gypsies."
In leftist circles, if I ever dare say "gypsies" they immediately correct me and say "Roma" to which I reply with my typical oneupmanship "Or Sinti." Because the Sinti, apparently, don't ever refer to themselves as "Roma." And that was before I started poking around on the internet and learned that in parts of western Europe they refer to themselves as Kale. Anyway, that's what I read.
"Romani," I read, is insufficient because some (many? I have no idea) scholars use it to refer to the language, not the people.
Back to "gypsy": It's also difficult, because, in English anyway, the word can refer to peoples, such as the Travelers in Ireland, or the Yenish in the Rhineland, that have no ethnic, linguistic, etc., connections to the Roma/Sinti/Kale.
Anyway, I wish you all luck in coming up with a non-pejorative term and, until then, am stuck with the decidedly un-sexy "itinerant peoples."
There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of info about them on wikipedia, but, apparently, Spain has its own semi-to-non-Iberian Kale itinerant people, the quinqui.
This shiznit's fascinating!
EDIT: Spanish page has more on them, but, alas, I never learned to speak Spanish past the present tense.
I'm no expert,
For example, until this thread I always wondered why the "bohemian lifestyle," to which I aspired in my youth, was named after a region now in the Czech Republic.
Learning things on the Paizo messageboards is fun!
(Maybe I should have watched more musicals.)
I'm no expert,
For example, until this thread I always wondered why the "bohemian lifestyle," to which I aspired in my youth, was named after a region now in the Czech Republic.
Learning things on the Paizo messageboards is fun!
(Maybe I should have watched more musicals.)
You mean those episodes of Buffy and Xena?
People give you blank looks when you describe them as Roma.
Even worse if you describe them as Ramen.
Woops, should have said operas.
If the Australian group wants outsiders to refer to them as "gypsies", as Shifty suggests, should those outsiders refuse because it's a slur in other parts of the world?
Of course, it's also possible Shifty's wrong about that and I wouldn't start using it just cause he said so.
My word? It was in the articles you cited.
:)
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As an American who spent 5 years living in Hungary in my late teens/early 20s, I was shocked by the vast difference in connotation the "g-word" carries in Europe versus back in the States.
Because it's so largely associated with the romanticized version of the Roma/Sinti people, I agree with earlier posters that most folks in the US don't realize this is a hateful, prejorative word.
And if some folks wish to self-identify that way, that's ok.
But for anyone doubting, let me assure folks that -- at least in Central and Eastern Europe -- it very much is intended as an insult, evoking prejudice and abhorrent stereotypes.
I can't speak to other people's conscience but -- for myself -- having learned the difference, I would not use it.
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Hey, guys, FYI: Just because black people sometimes use the n-word doesn't mean it's cool for you to do it. Just because Roma people sometimes use the g-word doesn't, either. That's their personal decision, not a weapon for you to brandish against your politically correct oppressors.
If a G-rated Disney movie can get away with calling them "gypsies" in the 1990s, what problem is there calling a fictional group that seems to fill in those stereotype fill in those stereotypes.
Well, if it's good enough for Disney, it's good enough for us! Who wants to watch Song of the South with me?
maybe we should all fall down and worship the new blood god "politically correctness" or just figure that if someone wants to be offended, they will be....
Not using an ethnic slur used to deride a badly-marginalized culture? What's next, blood sacrifices to the liberals' wicked god, whose name is Political Correctness? Wake up, sheeple! Wake up, sheeple! WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!
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Actually, that is exactly how language works. There is no objective/absolute definition of the meaning of the words, the thing is how they are interpreted. The same word can be a slur in a place and not a slur in some other place (not saying that is what happen in the US mind you, only a US romani can tell).If a G-rated Disney movie can get away with calling them "gypsies" in the 1990s, what problem is there calling a fictional group that seems to fill in those stereotype fill in those stereotypes.The fact that people have continued to use a slur without realizing it until recently does not, in fact, make it less of a slur. This is not how language works. Or culture. Or slurs.
Words can absolutely have different definitions different places. But the fact that people not of a group don't consider a particular term for that group a slur doesn't mean it's not. That's sorta up to actual members of the group in question.
Which is sorta what I was getting at, there.
