Hi,
According to this FAQ, it is "perfectly reasonable" for oracles to use their charisma modifier where spells specify using their wisdom modifier instead.
However, note that the reason mentioned for this is "because they were written before the idea of the oracle class as a Charisma-based caster".
Now, holy ice is from Ultimate Magic, published in 2011, whereas the oracle was introduced in the Advanced Player's Guide, published in 2010.
Since the oracle already existed when holy ice was first published, would that imply that the FAQ mentioned wouldn't apply to this particular spell?
Thanks in advance,
Kroisos.
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Oracle: Can I use my Charisma modifier for cleric spells and effects that use Wisdom, such as spiritual weapon?
As written, those effects say "Wisdom" (because they were written before the idea of the oracle class as a Charisma-based caster), so an oracle has to use her Wisdom modifier.
However, it is a perfectly reasonable house rule to allow an oracle to use her Charisma modifier (or bonus) for cleric spells that refer to the caster's Wisdom modifier (or bonus).
It is a "perfectly reasonable house rule", so the only one that can reply is your GM. It is not particularly unbalancing but using only 1 characteristic is an advantage. Mostly it is a matter of consistency: if your GM allow the substitution for a spell and for a class (there is some int based spell in the wizard/sorcerer list, if I recall correctly) he should allow it for all the similar spells.
In general that FAQ is saying, "No it doesn't work that way but I guess you can house rule it."
From a straight rules perspective, no it wouldn't apply to Holy Ice in the same way it also doesn't apply to Spiritual Weapon (without house rules Spiritual Weapon still uses wisdom).
Ask your GM is ultimately your answer. If I'm your GM, the answer is no.
Hi,
According to this FAQ, it is "perfectly reasonable" for oracles to use their charisma modifier where spells specify using their wisdom modifier instead.
However, note that the reason mentioned for this is "because they were written before the idea of the oracle class as a Charisma-based caster".
Now, holy ice is from Ultimate Magic, published in 2011, whereas the oracle was introduced in the Advanced Player's Guide, published in 2010.
Since the oracle already existed when holy ice was first published, would that imply that the FAQ mentioned wouldn't apply to this particular spell?
Thanks in advance,
Kroisos.
PRD: Holy Ice is listed as Cleric only. It is not an Oracle spell. As such, it goes by the standard cleric casting stat.
Since it was not originally intended for Oracles, whoever added it to their list should have said something about such things. The FAQ applies for this, in my opinion.
Do you know where it was added to the Oracle list?
/cevah
"Spells: An oracle casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists. "
In general that FAQ is saying, "No it doesn't work that way but I guess you can house rule it."
From a straight rules perspective, no it wouldn't apply to Holy Ice in the same way it also doesn't apply to Spiritual Weapon (without house rules Spiritual Weapon still uses wisdom).
Ask your GM is ultimately your answer. If I'm your GM, the answer is no.
...Why?
"Spells: An oracle casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists. "
Checked a download list of spells, and found the following:
Cleric only:
- Frosthammer
Oracle only:
- Borrow Fortune
- Divine Vessel
- Embrace Destiny
- Find Fault
- Foretell Failure
- Jungle Mind
- Oracle's Burden
- Oracle's Vessel
Wizard only:
- Blood Transcription
- Mage's Lucubration
- Mnemonic Enhancer
Looks like someone is not following the rule of oracle uses cleric or sorcerer uses wizard list.
/cevah
Frosthammer seems to be written very much to not be Cleric only, being that the introductory fluff text (not even included in the spell entry itself) says Priest of Kostchtchie, and then the spell goes on Ranger and Antipaladin lists as well. If Rangers can count as Priests of Kostchtchie then I have no idea how Oracles wouldn't. I think that list may be wrong about this spell. Frosthammer even has text to let Oracles base it off CHA.
The other spells that are Oracle only or Wizard only have effects that only work for those classes. A spell that interacts with the casters Oracle curse is no use for a Cleric, and spells that affect preparation of spells or copying in to spellbooks are no use to a Sorcerer.
A very strict reading of RAW would say that no, you cannot use your charisma.
But pretty much everybody agrees (including the PDT) that it's an extremely reasonable houserule.
...Why?In general that FAQ is saying, "No it doesn't work that way but I guess you can house rule it."
From a straight rules perspective, no it wouldn't apply to Holy Ice in the same way it also doesn't apply to Spiritual Weapon (without house rules Spiritual Weapon still uses wisdom).
Ask your GM is ultimately your answer. If I'm your GM, the answer is no.
Why should I change it? The rules don't even suggest that you should, merely that you could.
Give me a compelling reason other than "Because I want it".
But pretty much everybody agrees (including the PDT) that it's an extremely reasonable houserule.PDT agreed it'd be a reasonable houserule, but PDT didn't agree enough to actually change the rule themselves, however.
This I agree with strongly.
Give me a compelling reason other than "Because I want it".Presumably a player would want it changed because as written it makes the holy javelin option functionally useless for Oracles and it doesn't really add anything to the game to keep it away from Oracles.
And it also doesn't really add anything to me to let them have it either. There are plenty of spell options out there, not all of them need to be equally good for classes that might have access to them.
Just like Inquisitors can cast Litany of Righteousness but don't have an aura of good, so they can't benefit from it.
But pretty much everybody agrees (including the PDT) that it's an extremely reasonable houserule.PDT agreed it'd be a reasonable houserule, but PDT didn't agree enough to actually change the rule themselves, however.
...yes? And your point is?
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But pretty much everybody agrees (including the PDT) that it's an extremely reasonable houserule.PDT agreed it'd be a reasonable houserule, but PDT didn't agree enough to actually change the rule themselves, however.This I agree with strongly.
Give me a compelling reason other than "Because I want it".Presumably a player would want it changed because as written it makes the holy javelin option functionally useless for Oracles and it doesn't really add anything to the game to keep it away from Oracles.And it also doesn't really add anything to me to let them have it either. There are plenty of spell options out there, not all of them need to be equally good for classes that might have access to them.
Just like Inquisitors can cast Litany of Righteousness but don't have an aura of good, so they can't benefit from it.
...yeah that makes sense... for you know, spells based around a specific class feature. Un/Holy Ice isn't that. And if you're a Water/Winter Oracle, your options for thematic water/ice spells is quite limited even with the spells your Mystery provides. It doesn't harm the game to let the Oracle use their casting stat for Un/Holy Ice and makes it easier for certain thematic concepts to work (Oracle of Poseidon/Gozreh/Besmara/Dagon). The game is about having fun and there isn't anything fun about that that stat limitation for Spiritual Ally or Un/Holy Ice. And I don't think there is anything about those spells mentioned that is particularly conceptually stuck to the Wisdom stat. I don't see why Charisma couldn't be used to eg your Spiritual Ally on or why Wisdom should be the damage determinator for Un/Holy Ice.
Well thank god we know that somebody somewhere is up to something.
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The point is that while PDT says it's a reasonable houserule, they had enough reservations with the idea that they were unwilling to actually make changes themselves, which says something. I'm not sure what, but definitely something....yes? And your point is?But pretty much everybody agrees (including the PDT) that it's an extremely reasonable houserule.PDT agreed it'd be a reasonable houserule, but PDT didn't agree enough to actually change the rule themselves, however.
Could say a multitude of things. My personal favorite interpretation is:
Wisdom
Wisdom (if you're a cleric) or Charisma (if you're an oracle)
your spellcasting ability modifier
Um, based the size comparison up above, pagination/page fitting is going to become a big problem very quickly if this change was to be put into future iterations of the Core Rulebook, it's one of the things they must keep track of when applying errata to that document, they don't want to invalidate "future" refences to sections of the CRB. For example, Reign of Winter Player's Guide mentions that Smoked Goggles are in Ultimate Equipment pg 72 so the PDT tries to avoid making any changes that will affect page count (they can only publish books with page totals in multiples of 16 I believe but could be wrong) or the location of each item so as to not invalidate any of their other documents. The same concept applies to all of their hardcover books (since they don't, frustratingly enough, errata any of their other books).
With that in mind, my own interpretation is simply that it would caused that type of issue and they opted instead that merely say it's a reasonable change. Of course I'm not the PDT nor can I say I can read their minds, but I think I can atleast see a major issue they would of ran into.
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Frosthammer seems to be written very much to not be Cleric only, being that the introductory fluff text (not even included in the spell entry itself) says Priest of Kostchtchie, and then the spell goes on Ranger and Antipaladin lists as well. If Rangers can count as Priests of Kostchtchie then I have no idea how Oracles wouldn't. I think that list may be wrong about this spell. Frosthammer even has text to let Oracles base it off CHA.
The other spells that are Oracle only or Wizard only have effects that only work for those classes. A spell that interacts with the casters Oracle curse is no use for a Cleric, and spells that affect preparation of spells or copying in to spellbooks are no use to a Sorcerer.
A real quick tangent. In Golarion, "Priests of [Insert Deity here]" can be of any classes the deity decides s/he/it will accept as priests.
So I think the logic best follows as:
It can be assumed that ALL Clerics in Good Standing with Their God are Priests.
But it can't be assumed that ALL Priests of a god are Clerics.
Many gods have Bards(Shelyn, Desna, Cayden Cailean, Calistria), Rangers (Kostchtchie, Erastil, Cernunnos), Antipaladins(So many evil gods probably), and Paladins(Iomedae, Ragathiel, Vildeis) as "priests". Some likely even have some none-spellcasting classes or very different spell casting classes since Irori has clergy that are monks (and while Psychic wasn't out when Inner Sea Gods came out, I think it can fit the bill of a priest with the Lore or Self-Perfection discipline).
So, keeping in mind the idea of the Oracle of Athens/Athena and Oracle of Apollo, I suspect that if an Oracle decides to dedicate herself to a god, they too can be priests of a god. And since Frosthammer is on the cleric spell list and the Oracle uses the cleric spell list, I suspect a Winter Oracle of Kostchtchie can use Frosthamer.
/tangent /rant
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Frosthammer seems to be written very much to not be Cleric only, being that the introductory fluff text (not even included in the spell entry itself) says Priest of Kostchtchie, and then the spell goes on Ranger and Antipaladin lists as well. If Rangers can count as Priests of Kostchtchie then I have no idea how Oracles wouldn't. I think that list may be wrong about this spell. Frosthammer even has text to let Oracles base it off CHA.
The other spells that are Oracle only or Wizard only have effects that only work for those classes. A spell that interacts with the casters Oracle curse is no use for a Cleric, and spells that affect preparation of spells or copying in to spellbooks are no use to a Sorcerer.
In Golarion divine spellcasters must choose a deity that they follow, with 1 exception, the oracle (and the druid that can follow the Green faith).
So yes, a ranger can be a priest fo Kostchtchie, while an oracle isn't a priest of anyone.Frosthammer seems to be written very much to not be Cleric only, being that the introductory fluff text (not even included in the spell entry itself) says Priest of Kostchtchie, and then the spell goes on Ranger and Antipaladin lists as well. If Rangers can count as Priests of Kostchtchie then I have no idea how Oracles wouldn't. I think that list may be wrong about this spell. Frosthammer even has text to let Oracles base it off CHA.
The other spells that are Oracle only or Wizard only have effects that only work for those classes. A spell that interacts with the casters Oracle curse is no use for a Cleric, and spells that affect preparation of spells or copying in to spellbooks are no use to a Sorcerer.
A real quick tangent. In Golarion, "Priests of [Insert Deity here]" can be of any classes the deity decides s/he/it will accept as priests.
So I think the logic best follows as:
It can be assumed that ALL Clerics in Good Standing with Their God are Priests.
But it can't be assumed that ALL Priests of a god are Clerics.
Many gods have Bards(Shelyn, Desna, Cayden Cailean, Calistria), Rangers (Kostchtchie, Erastil, Cernunnos), Antipaladins(So many evil gods probably), and Paladins(Iomedae, Ragathiel, Vildeis) as "priests". Some likely even have some none-spellcasting classes or very different spell casting classes since Irori has clergy that are monks (and while Psychic wasn't out when Inner Sea Gods came out, I think it can fit the bill of a priest with the Lore or Self-Perfection discipline).
So, keeping in mind the idea of the Oracle of Athens/Athena and Oracle of Apollo, I suspect that if an Oracle decides to dedicate herself to a god, they too can be priests of a god. And since Frosthammer is on the cleric spell list and the Oracle uses the cleric spell list, I suspect a Winter Oracle of Kostchtchie can use Frosthamer.
/tangent /rant
True, a member of any class can be a lay priest of any deity.
It is questionable if that will interact on how the class work.|
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The typical benefit is in the form of extended summon monster lists. It's up in the air, I suppose, if Oracle's gain the benefits of Variant Spellcasting options if they choose to dedicate themselves to a deity.
Priesthood is something I wish the world designers/game designers had spent more time developing as a game mechanic. Longer then simply the Variant Spellcasting paragraph each deity received in Inner Sea Gods.
