Mods, feel free to move this if it fits somewhere else better.
It's occurred to me recently how similar these classes are, but how completely outclassed the Paladin seems to be. But maybe I'm wrong, I am fairly new to Pathfinder. Let's compare features:
Shared/Analogous features:
Alignment: Paladin must be LG, Warpriest can be anything. Likewise, the Paladin essentially has to worship a LG, NG, or LN god, where the Warpriest can do whatever.
BAB: Paladin wins here, full vs 3/4, but see below
HD: Again, slight advantage Paladin, but see below
Saves: Same
Skills: Same Points, but the Warpriest gets exclusive access to Climb, Intimidate, Knowledge (Engineering), Survival and Swim, where the only thing the Paladin gets that the Warpriest doesn't is Knowledge (nobility).
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Basically the same, but the Warpriest gets automatic proficiency with their deity's favored weapon or IUS as a bonus feat.
Bonus Feats: Tempered Champion gets 5 from a small list of combat feats (and has to focus on his or her deity's favored weapon or its group). Champion of the Faith gets 5 from the full list of combat feats, plus weapon focus, possibly plus IUS (as mentioned above).
Smite: The Paladin can smite earlier (1st level instead of 4th) and can smite more often (maxing out at 7 times instead of 5), but the Warpriest has the option of smiting non-evil foes (though that option must be picked at the first level and can't be changed). Yes, Evil will usually be the best opposed alignment, but not always.
Lay on Hands vs Fervor: LoH will heal more damage, and can add mercies, but Fervor opens up the option of swift action casting, which is a bigger deal most of the time.
Detect Evil/Alignment: Paladin gets it first, but Warpriest's can be more flexible.
Sacred Weapon/Divine Bond:
Paladin's lasts longer, comes on line earlier, and is more flexible. Clear advantage Paladin here.
Other Features:
Paladin:
Auras: A variety of resistances and immunities that vary from pretty awesome to pretty situational.
Channel Energy: A useful group heal, but often won't be worth two mercies.
Holy Champion: nice if you ever get there.
Warpriest:
Blessings: Hard to rate as a group, these can provide a huge variety of different bonuses. All in all, they're more flexible but generally less powerful and long-lasting than Paladin's auras. It is a more strategic than tactical flexibility though, since once chosen they can't generally be changed.
Sacred Armor: saves you some gold if nothing else.
Aspect of War: Useful, but not as good as the Paladin's capstone.
Spellcasting: This is the big one. Nothing the Paladin has comes close here.
In the areas that tend to be the most powerful, the Warpriest seems to have all the advantages. The Warpriest's extra bonus feats make it easier to find space for Toughness, which completely erases the HD difference (well, on the average. If you're taking max each level it closes half the gap). The Warpriest's spells have all sorts of insane flexibility. Not the god-like power of a wizard, maybe, but huge nonetheless, even with only six levels of casting. Certainly nothing the Paladin can come close to matching, while the Warpriest can probably pseudo-replicate many of the Paladin's unique features. To cite one example, the Warpriest's BAB deficiency can be made up (and then some) with one swiftcast of Divine Favor/Power (especially if you have the Fate's Favored trait, which you should), with extra damage thrown in as a bonus (more than that once you hit Divine Power). By the time a Warpriest gets sixth level spells, he can do things like banish Outsiders, grant ability bonuses or cure spells to the entire party, summon all sorts of creatures, create a permanent oasis, and so on. Even cantrips are great tools the Paladin can't replicate, things like Create Water, Light, Mending, Detect Magic, etc.
It seems like a Tempered Champion wants to be a Warpriest, with its unique features copying Sacred Weapon's scaling damage increase and more or less replicating a Warpriest's bonus feats, but do a Paladin's Auras and Divine bond come anywhere close to replicating a Warpriest's spells and blessings? Is the Paladin's Channel and Smite worth that much? When would you take the Paladin over the Warpriest?
I'm not sure I see your point.
A tempered champion paladin only trades out paladin spellcasting (which isn't amazing, but also isn't nothing) in order to get 5 extra feats (over 20 levels) and gives him access to feats his normally can't get (Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and Great Weapon Spec) and gets a free damage die increase (depending on the weapon).
It's not great, but it's not terrible either. Comparing to a base paladin, and that's what you should be comparing the Tempered Champion Paladin to, the base paladin.
As for Champion of the Faith...
It's changed version of sacred weapon is weaker, detect alignment is weaker than the bonus feat. Getting smite in place of channel energy is good, but warpriest don't normally have good charisma (they cast with wisdom) so using it well requires some charisma to get a decent to hit or deflection bonus (though the damage bonus is nice). Smite is nice, but has its weak points too. So basically the Champion of the Faith gets a bonus to damage against certain enemies a few times a day. Also don't forget swift action competition. You only get one swift action a round and both Smite and Fervor are swift actions.
Overall, the Tempered Champion is roughly equal to a normal paladin I'd say. Champion of the Faith Warpriest is maybe a slight trade up from the base warpriest with having Smite, but not overwhelmingly better in my opinion.
I think what you really have to consider is that truthfully a base warpriest is better than a paladin since it's swift action buffing can already boost it up to full BAB to hit levels it has more and better spells. Ultimately your comparison is that a warpriest is better than a paladin, which is true.
I wouldn't rate a Tempered Champion as high as a normal Paladin. Even a Paladin's minor spellcasting represents more combat ability, and infinitely more out-of-combat utility, than a few bonus combat feats (from a limited list at that). Sacred Weapon isn't much of an improvement for most Paladins until high levels, and even then, what's another 1d8 damage at level 20? I guess activating Divine Bond extra times per day using Lay on Hands is all right.
...how are the saves the same? Paladin still has Divine Grace. If you mean base saves, sure, but you don't mention Divine Grace anywhere else.
As others have said, and? You're comparing a bad paladin archetype to a good warpriest one but the only conclusion you can make is that a paladin makes a worse warpriest than the warpriest makes a paladin. So? Does it make a better paladin than a normal paladin? Because that's actually a question people might want to know the answer to.
It makes a DIFFERENT Paladin. What's better really depends on what the player values more. The Tempered Champion is for those who want a divinely charged fighter, The standard Paladin is for someone who wants a more magical flavor.
The issue I see with Champion of the Faith is their smite requires you burning 2 uses of fervor, and I think it's safe to say I'd rather be casting swift divine favors or something similar with my fervors.
The issue I see with Champion of the Faith is their smite requires you burning 2 uses of fervor, and I think it's safe to say I'd rather be casting swift divine favors or something similar with my fervors.
Exactly. A normal paladin gets up to 7 free Smite Evils per day.
A Champion of the Faith gets 1/2 level + wisdom modifier uses of fervor a day. Lets say a 20th level Warpriest has a wisdom of 20 (pretty reasonable, start with 16 in wisdom and get a headband to increase by 4, you've probably put priority on Strength or Dex and Con as secondary stats to increase as well so you can't go too crazy). So that warpriest would only have a Fervor pool of 15. He would spend almost all his Fervor to replicate the same number of Smites.
...how are the saves the same? Paladin still has Divine Grace. If you mean base saves, sure, but you don't mention Divine Grace anywhere else.
As others have said, and? You're comparing a bad paladin archetype to a good warpriest one but the only conclusion you can make is that a paladin makes a worse warpriest than the warpriest makes a paladin. So? Does it make a better paladin than a normal paladin? Because that's actually a question people might want to know the answer to.
Yeah, my bad on Divine Grace, I was thinking about it but blew right by without mentioning it somehow. What I meant when I said the saves are the same is that they've got the same save progression: good Fort and Will, bad Reflex.
As for why I'm comparing them, well, because they seem similar in aim; each is trying to be the other. The Champion of the Faith is a Warpriest that's trying to be a Paladin, with Smite, Detect [Alignment], etc. The Tempered Champion, in some ways, looks like it's trying to be a Warpriest, gaining the Sacred Weapon damage increase and a bunch of bonus combat feats. So I was wondering what others thought, as to which does it better, and when you'd use one or the other.
I don't see Tempered Champion as trying to be a warpriest, I see it as giving the paladin extra feats and a convenient damage boost at higher levels (honestly sacred weapon isn't great since most paladins are going to use a big two handed weapon and it takes a while for the sacred weapon damage dice to catch up). If anything Tempered Champion is making the paladin more like a fighter with a slightly divine bent (which makes some sense as the warpriest is supposed to be a combination of the cleric and fighter).
As for when I would play a paladin (with or without the archetype) probably never. They're so narrow in focus mechanically that when you aren't fighting evil they don't have much to do offensively. They're a weaker fighter when they can't use Smite.
actually with this they are on par with the fighter damage wise
Fighter has fighter only feats, but is gated at lv 4 and 8 for weapon spec and weapon focus greater.
fighter's weapon training is +1 at 5 and +2 at nine, which is the same bonus that the paladin is getting from it's divine bond.
So only once you include the fighter gloves is the fighter doing more damage than this paladin.
Yeah but the fighter has it all day, while the paladin doesn't.
Also, divine bond can't push a weapon above a +5, and instead you have to add weapon enhancement bonus (which don't necessarily increase your attack and damage).
The fighters attack and damage bonuses will stack with his weapon.
Nothing about the Tempered Champion is directed at becoming a Sentinel.
The Tempered Champion qualifies for it, but every class/character that has proficiency in their deities favored weapon can qualify for the prestige class.