Advice on making a boring fighter build more interesting

[Diminuendo]

I'm trying to create a build to take advantage of the cheap prices of enchanted crossbow bolts.

I'm putting it together and am feeling no crunch - nothing super interesting about the build. I know this is a normal symptom of Fighter builds, but the amount of feats required combined with the lack of any versatility make the idea of playing this build feel boring to me.

I think swapping to Bolt Ace and forgetting about the Mastering enchanment might be best for the build.

I'm happy to do a complete rebuild, my goal is a versatile non-caster who wields a hand crossbow and light shield.

here is my previous build;

Alcuin
Male half-elf (Half Drow) fighter (lore warden) 12/bard* (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide)
LN Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 16, touch 14, flat-footed 12 (+4 Dex, +2 shield)
hp 112 (12d10+36)
Fort +10 (+2 racial bonus to resist poison and disesases, mundane and magical), Ref +8, Will +7 (+2 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile light shield bash +19/+14/+9 (1d3+9)
Ranged mwk hand crossbow +20/+15 (1d4+6/19-20)
Special Attacks bardic performance 25 rounds/day (move action; inspire competence +4, inspire courage +3), weapon trainings (close +4, crossbows +3)
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +12; CMB +18; CMD 32 (36 vs. disarm, 36 vs. sunder)
Feats Advanced Weapon Training, Combat Expertise, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot[UC], Sword And Pistol[UC], Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (hand crossbow), Weapon Specialization (hand crossbow)
Traits clever wordplay, regional recluse: ilsurian
Skills Acrobatics +16, Climb +4, Escape Artist +9, Intimidate +12, Knowledge (arcana) +13, Knowledge (geography) +12, Knowledge (history) +13, Knowledge (nature) +13, Knowledge (nobility) +13, Knowledge (planes) +13, Knowledge (religion) +13, Perception +20, Perform (oratory) +14, Ride +8, Sleight of Hand +14, Stealth +21, Survival +12, Swim +4; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven, Halfling, Infernal
SQ bardic knowledge +6, elf blood, hair's breadth, know thy enemy, poison use, thinblood resilience, versatile performance (oratory)
Other Gear +1 mastering light wooden shield, mwk hand crossbow, gloves of dueling[APG], 37,447 gp
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Special Abilities
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Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.

Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.

Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Bardic Knowledge +6 (Ex) Add +6 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (move action, 25 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Combat Expertise +/-4 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Hair's Breadth (Ex) Negate critical hit if Acrobatics check is higher than confirmation roll.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Know Thy Enemy (Standard Action) (Ex) Knowledge check vs. 1 foe to gain +2 to att & weapon dam for encounter.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Poison Use (Ex) This race is skilled in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves.
Rapid Reload (Hand crossbow) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Snap Shot Threaten squares within 5 feet of you when wielding a ranged weapon
Sword and Pistol Firearm/crossbow attacks don't provoke AoO from foes you threaten with a melee weapon.
Thinblood Resilience Darkborn are accustomed to torture at the hands of their drow forebears, and gain a +2 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison and disease, including magical diseases. Darkborn also gain the poison use ability and never risk accidentally poiso
Versatile Performance (Oratory) +14 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Oratory skill for Diplomacy or Sense Motive checks
Versatile Training (Weapon Training [Crossbows] +3) (Ex) The fighter can use his base attack bonus in place of his ranks in two skills of his choice that are associated with the fighter weapon group he has chosen with this option (see below). The fighter need not be wielding an associated weapon to use thi
Weapon Training (Close) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Weapon Training (Crossbows) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Crossbows

[avr]

In-character the advantage of a hand crossbow is that it's a concealable ranged weapon which can be fired with small motions, which might be useful when trying to assassinate someone. Using bardic performance: oratory and having no particular bonus attacking a target from stealth suggests you're not going that route.

By the rules the advantage of a hand crossbow is... nothing. Enchanted crossbow bolts are no cheaper than enchanted arrows, not sure what you're saying there. For a 12th level fighter doing 1d4+6 per attack even with your offhand is pretty sad.

If your GM is willing to work with you on the assassination angle (& you're not playing in PFS) maybe a Slayer would be a workable class to start with? Plenty of feats and they're more interesting to play than fighters IMO. Or a slayer/bolt ace maybe.

Edit: come to think of it, is this for PFS? I remember reading they have some odd house rules regarding purchasing magic items.

[GeraintElberion]

Ask your GM if you can play a gunslinger but re-skin your guns as 'super-special-custom crossbows' and your ammo as 'super-custom bolts'.

Job done, and you'll be effective.

[Chess Pwn]

or play the bolt ace gunslinger.

[Ectar]

I don't think you can reload a crossbow while wearing a light shield.
With as many feats as this character has, you could maybe grab empty quiver style instead of using shield bashes. That makes you into a fun (IMO) kind of switch hitter.
Your melee options will be a bit better, but your AC will take a hit.

[Diminuendo]

no reason why I couldn't

Light Shield wrote:

You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

It was the reason I chose the HandCrossbow; I can wield it in one hand without penelty to hit.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Does it have to be a hand crossbow? Why do you like hand crossbows? It seems like the chief advantage of a hand crossbow is that you can wield one in either hand, but you want to use a shield in your other hand. I guess using a light shield, you can still re-load your crossbow. The rules say you can use, but not reload a crossbow with one hand, but with a light shield you can hold certain objects, so I guess re-loading is okay.

So your hand crossbow has a range increment of 30', you expect to be in the thick of the fighting from time to time, and you need a shield?

Personally, I think your shield is a better weapon, with more flexibility and more potential to deliver more pain at distance and up close.

How noncaster do you have to be? Technically, Alchemists are noncasters.

You seem to be missing the Precise Shot Feat. That seems a must-have.

You have Snap Shot, but I don't see an Attack of Opportunity trigger. Snap Shot only has a range of 5', and you are already threatenting with your Shield Bash. If it were a Spiked Shield, it would do as much damage as your Hand Crossbow.

Take a look at the False Opening Feat. You allow an Attack of Opportunity when you use your Ranged Weapon in Melee, but in that even, your AC goes up by +4, and then your enemy is Flatfooted. So, if you character had some Levels in things that grant Sneak Attack...

You are taking Improved Shield Bash. How about Sheild Slam? Shield Slam gives you a Free Bull Rush with every Shield Bash. Then take Greater Bull Rush, which gives Attacks of Opportunity all around your your buddies. Take Paired Opportunist along with a Class Ability that lets you exploit it, and you get the AoO, too. Take Spiked Destroyer, and get an extra 1d6/round with every Bull Rush.

How would you feel about being an Eldritch Guardian instead of a Lore Warden? A level 2 Eldritch Guardian's Familiar automatically knows all the Combat Feats its master knows, including Paired Opportunist and Harder they Fall. Harder they Fall will allow your to Bull Rush or Trip opponents of greater size than you normally could. Make your Familiar a Mauler Familiar, and you have a Flanking buddy that will really let you abuse your opponents with Shield Slam.

Spiked Shields are Piercing Weapons. Take Hamatula Strike: free Grapple with every hit with a Piercing Weapon. Also, wear Armor Spikes: free AS damage with every Grapple Attack. get 2 weapon Fighting. In melee, attack with your Spiked, light Shield and with your Armor Spikes, both light weapons, and on either hit, you also get your Grappling attempt along with your Armor Spike Damage.

Something truly scary is taking shape in my head...

[Darksol the Painbringer]

My suggestion is to not spend money on special Crossbow Bolts; most effects on your Crossbow apply to your Crossbow Bolts, and are much more cost effective. Also, I'd suggest you specialize in a single weapon. I know, this makes you seem more "normal," but even a Fighter, with his bonus feats and selection class features, can't really make the most of using two different weapons. With that being said, look at what each option takes to be good:

The Crossbow requires 5 levels in Bolt Ace to be effective, but has very good range to pick off far-away enemies; the remaining levels can be picked up with Slayer, which gives 2 good saves, full BAB, and options like Trapfinding, Evasion, etc. because Bolt Ace, after 5th level, isn't necessary.

A Light Throwing Shield requires the Agile property (AKA 8,000 gold) and a Proficiency feat to be effective; it has less range, but it is still pretty good, and also has great melee capabilities. It also doubles up as a defensive item, granting anywhere from +1-+6 AC.

In my opinion, considering you are dead-set on Fighter, the Shield build is easier to replicate, but takes longer to make extremely strong compared to Rangers or Slayers, who can bypass feat pre-requisites. The biggest one is Shield Master, making your AC Enhancements double as Weapon Enhancements when you attack.

With the Throwing Shield build, you can be pure Dexterity-based offensively, adding Dexterity to every attack and damage roll, for both melee and ranged (once you get the Agile property).

Ironically enough, you can take 1 level of Swashbuckler, pick up a Throwing Klar, acquire Slashing Grace, and not have to wait 8,000 gold to be effective in combats.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

A Light Throwing Shield requires the Agile property (AKA 8,000 gold)

I'm not familiar with the Agile property, or perhaps I just forgot what it was and can't find it again. Is it a Weapon or Armor enchantment? What does it do?

I think I disagree with you. I think I can put together a Throwing Shield build that is so good, you would accuse me of cheating, and I don't even know about how you use the Agile property.

But I would like to know.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Agile Property

Per the wording, it applies Dexterity in place of Strength regardless of attack method, as long as the wearer has the Weapon Finesse feat. (Ironically enough, this means characters who pick up Weapon Finesse without it actually being a feat, like Swashbucklers, can't use Agile Weapons.)

It's a +1 Property, which requires a +1 Weapon to apply, i.e. 8,000 gold.

Since it's a Throwing Shield, it's an Exotic Weapon, and you also need to spend a Proficiency Feat, otherwise you suffer a -4 penalty on all attacks with it, per RAW.

The benefit here is that you have a weapon that can be used for both melee and range, and requires only a single statistic to make good; Dexterity. The only other known options which do this are 5th level Gunslingers with Firearms or 5th level Bolt Aces with Crossbows. An argument could be made with Swashbucklers and Throwing Klars, but as with the above parenthetical, I'd advise against it due to table variation.

It allows some combat versatility, but is by no means overpowered compared to an optimized Bolt Ace, due to thrown weapons being obsolete after ~8th level or so.

[Diminuendo]

I appreciate the advice, I have the image of a character with a Light Shield and Crossbow in my head. I think Advanced Weapon Training: Focused Weapon is required to raise damage if I stay Fighter only. I don't really want to step away from that concept, but I think I'll need to.

Empty Quiver Style seems like the best melee contingency. I would rather invest those feats into melee with a light shield, but I dont think that option will produce as high damage potential. Going that path I would ditch the shield, swap to Bolt Ace 7, and upgrade to a Heavy Crossbow.

My original concept for this character was actually an Eldritch Guardian Ferret Familiar, so I love the idea. The reason I moved away from the archetype was the fear that a crossbow/shield build wouldn't have many transerable feats for the Familiar.

My main concepts are flavor motivated - I'm having trouble making something mechanically sound.

[Diminuendo]

I feel what I really want is the versatility the Archer Fighter was intened to have with a Crossbow.

[Scott Wilhelm]

So, if you want to focus on the Crossbow, I recommend committing to the Heavy Crossbow. Eventually, you take the Crossbow Mastery Feat, and you will be able to reload your Heavy Crossbow as a Free Action and Make Full Attacks with it. Even at level 1, you can take Rapid Reload and reload your Heavy Crossbow as a Move Action.

I recommend 1-2 levels in Ranger, especially if this is for PFS or any campaign where minor magic items are readily available. Even at level 1, you can use a Wand of Gravity Bow, which will up your normal 1d10 damage for your Heavy Crossbow to 2d8. The bonus Feat for Level 2 Ranger can be Precise Shot, a Must-have. Maybe something else: one of the things that is nice about the Ranger Combat Style Feat is that you can take it without taking the prereqs, and I do like the Point Blank Shot.

One of the cool things about Crossbows is that you can fire them while Prone with no penalty, and when you are fighting at range, being Prone is a very good thing: +4AC. But not always, so special abilities that have to to with being Prone seem like a good idea. I'm thinking the Rogue Talents Stand Up and Rogue Crawl, 1 lets you Move at 1/2 Speed while Prone, and Stand Up lets you stand up without provoking Attacks of Opportunity.

Meanwhile, Sneak Attack Damage is awesome for when you are using a Heavy Crossbow. The lower rate of fire with the crossbow will be well-offset by the added Sneak Attack Damage. You can take either or both of those Rogue Talents through levels in Ninja, and learn the Vanishing Trick, turning Invisible as a Swift Action, instantly denying your opponent Dex Bonus, and locking in your Sneak Attack Damage, when you put a bolt in your victim's eyeball.

I have been fooling around with a build like this that combines 3-4 levels in Monk, Drunken Master. The Ninja Vanishing Trick costs a Ki Point to use. With Drunken Master and the Potion Glutton Feat, you can Replenish Ki as a Standard or a Swift Action by drinking. I was thinking of using the Quinngong Monk Ability Scorching Ray or a Wand of Scorching Ray: ranged Touch Attack vs. Flat-Footed AC that does 4d6+Sneak Attack Damage; that just makes me smile. But it should work almost as well with Crossbows. In order to use the Wand, I would take a level in Arcanist with the Dimensional Slide Ability to aid with Flanking, but that's a lot of multiclassing. It might be better just want to stick with Ninja rather than dip into Monk. +1 Ki Point/2 levels, and you will get Greater Invisibility as a Ninja Master Trick, so no more worry about having to re-use your Vanishing Trick. Meanwhile your Sneak Attack Damage will grow faster without dipping.

Another way to consider is Alchemist. With the Explosive Missile Discovery, you can put the Alchemal Bombs on your crossbow bolts with an extra explosive punch on top of your Bolt damage. There are lots of fancy Alchemal Options to choose from, including Vivissectionist, if you want to blend Alchemal Discoveries with Rogue Talents and Ninja Tricks while still pumping up your Sneak Attack Damage.

So you get to be a Drow Ninja, one with the Darkness, dripping with poison, Pinpointing Death 1 by 1, then disappearing like a bad dream. That seems very Drow.