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As of the Season 8 Guide
weplayers have NO access to the Bestiary...The "Summon _____" spells no longer work. (RAW they haven't since the start of the Core Campaign...)
Some Animal Companions now have abilities with no rules.
I fixed that for you.
The *player* doesn't need access to the Bestiary, because summoned creatures are not under their control. Summoned creatures are NPCs under the GM's control, and so all the rules are available through the PRD to the GM.
This is the way it's always been, but many players have thought otherwise. This is an elegant way of clarifying it.
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As of the Season 8 Guide
weplayers have NO access to the Bestiary...The "Summon _____" spells no longer work. (RAW they haven't since the start of the Core Campaign...)
Some Animal Companions now have abilities with no rules.
I fixed that for you.
The *player* doesn't need access to the Bestiary, because summoned creatures are not under their control. Summoned creatures are NPCs under the GM's control, and so all the rules are available through the PRD to the GM.
This is the way it's always been, but many players have thought otherwise. This is an elegant way of clarifying it.
That is pedantry of the highest order and completely unacceptable. As the GM I have way, way more things to do than to run a players summoned monster.
The player gets to run his summoned monster. And he better have the Bestiary stats at hand. That is true in both Core and Regular campaigns as far as I'm concerned.
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You're right, players should bring everything they need for their PCs, and that should include monster stats for summons. (Especially summons!) I just don't think it's the end of the world scenario T_K makes it out to be (on two different threads, now), since the GM can access those from the PRD. I think it likely that if the intent was to ban summon monster and pets, they would have said that. (Of course, I'm all for banning summons and pets, but that's not a popular opinion I'm sure. :)
Sometimes when the new Guide comes out at this very busy time of year, a few things need tweaking or something gets missed, or a change happens that needs to be looked at. It's not a big deal - so let's hold off on the campaign-shattering prognostications, can we?
As for "completely unacceptable" - YMMV. While I generally do as you do, sometimes it's more efficient for the GM to run them. I have seen many new players drawn to "pet" classes but get bogged down in the number of options and stats to deal with. Other times, the summoned creatures portray an unusual sense of prescience and understanding despite not having a shared language.
An easy way to fix this is to just update the Bestiary entry in Additional Resources to allow for the stats of summoned monsters and rules for pets. That way not everyone needs it as a Core Assumption, but it can be used by those who do.
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Although the new Guide no longer has the text, "For spells and class features that reference the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, that sourcebook may be utilized with the restrictions noted in Additional Resources." that appeared in the Season 7 guide, I doubt that any GM is going to disallow summon spells or animal companion feats that appear in the CRB because the sourcebook that the CRB says to use for them is not specifically cited as available in the Core campaign. If that does happen, you will have a case for a request to correct the current Guide; however, I expect GMs will use common sense. (Is this where Nefreet will suggest that John Compton has declared that common sense does not apply as a general rule?)
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Repeating your question three times doesn't make it any clearer. The GM has legal access to the stats (even if they don't own the Bestiary) through the PRD. Games will not be destroyed, nations will not fall.
Yes, it is something to work on for the team after GenCon, to make it crystal clear for those folks who need it spelled out - but I agree with Pete that most reasonable folks will still allow summons. As to your interpretation of the motivation behind this - let's wait and see instead of trying to blame things on Mr. Compton in his absence.
Take a breath, wait a week or so, and it will get sorted out. It's not helpful trying to inflame everyone about a "crisis" that 99% of us realize isn't a problem.
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I will point out that doing that is creating a House Rule, something we are not allowed to do in PFS.
Because the CRB says to use the Bestiary for the animal companion feats that do not appear there and for the stats for summoned monsters, I hardly think it is a house rule to do so. While it might be nice for the Guide to Organized Play to say that this is legal, it is far from necessary, in my opinion.
Venture-Agent, Virginia—Newport News
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Pete, can you cite where the CRB actually directs you to the Bestiary for the Summon spells.
So far NO ONE has found this oft quoted rule.
But it sounds like you know where it is, please post the citation.
It seems that neither the specific summoning spells, nor the sub-school rules on conjuration mention a specific book for looking up creature statistics.
Thus, we must indeed ask "How do core rulebook spells which summon creatures work in PFS core campaign?", then hit the FAQ button to get some developer attention.
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I stand corrected - I reviewed the summon spells in the CRB and the reference I thought was in the table to use the Bestiary for stats was not there. The reference to the Bestiary for the animal companion feats is present. However, the lack of a cited source for summoned creature stats would apply to the PFS campaign as well and so if the rule is to use the Bestiary there, why would it be different for the Core campaign? The GM running a Core game is told to reference stat blocks from whichever resource is used for any unmodified creatures that appear in a scenario, so the same rule would apply for summoned creatures, would it not? I can understand wanting to have a clear statement like the one that was in the previous Guide, but in the absence of such, common sense should be sufficient.
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It's not just the summons spells; at least those have a list of specific critters to chose from. What about a druid's wildshape ability? It says as per the beast shape/elemental body/plant shape spells, but those don't have a listed legal source. I understand wanting to take the companion choices from the Bestiary out of Core, but taking out the entire book opens up all sorts of other problems.
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Limited Resources: Core Campaign PCs are limited tonusing the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Society
Roleplaying Guild Guide, and Pathfinder RPG Character
Traits Web Enhancement when building their characters.
and
In Core mode, you use only the
Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook content and this guide in
character creation. It reduces the amount of resources
you must own, and provides a simplified version of the
campaign by limiting choices.
I don't get this discussion at all. The bestiary has been take away during character creation. Since the CRB says I can summon monsters and the ONLY place where those creatures stats are available is in the bestiary, then during play i would think that the point is mute.
I can't use bestiary during character creation. That's OK summon monster spell is in the CRB and specifically lists the monsters I can summon.
Those monster's stats are in bestiary, but I only need them while playing my character.
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The problem is that the guide never then gives a list of books you can use after character creation. When it comes to Core, we can only use what's listed as legal the guide, which does not include the Bestiary anywhere in the text. There are posts by Mike Brock clarify options back when Core was first introduced, but he then said that these option would appear in the guide (and did indeed make it into season 7). The new guide replaces the old one, so by the Bestiary not appearing as a resource in season 8, I can see where people are saying it's no longer a legal source for Core.
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Mulgar;
By that logic we also get access to any and all additions to those lists...So, by your logic, I can bring my copy of Inner Sea Gods and get the expanded Summon lists.
Core Campaign: This mode of play utilizes all of the
campaign’s currently sanctioned material, but only allows the use of the Core Rulebook, Character Traits Web Enhancement, and Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide in regards to PC creation, gaining levels, and purchasing equipment. (See page 8 for the complete rules for the Core Campaign.)
Wouldn't this definition answer the question? You can use sanctioned material if you can achieve access to it in pc creation. Therefore this definition would allow the use of the Bestiary in using summon monster while playing the game.
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Mulgar;
By that logic we also get access to any and all additions to those lists...So, by your logic, I can bring my copy of Inner Sea Gods and get the expanded Summon lists.
Wouldn't this definition answer the question? You can use sanctioned material if you can achieve access to it in pc creation. Therefore this definition would allow the use of the Bestiary in using summon monster while playing the game.Core Campaign: This mode of play utilizes all of the
campaign’s currently sanctioned material, but only allows the use of the Core Rulebook, Character Traits Web Enhancement, and Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide in regards to PC creation, gaining levels, and purchasing equipment. (See page 8 for the complete rules for the Core Campaign.)
The problem is the currently sanctioned material isn't listed anywhere (that I can find) other than the guide, which no longer lists the Bestiary. A new core player wouldn't know it was an option (and creates confusion for existing players), which makes playing a wildshaping druid near impossible.
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I marked Kelly Youngblood's post as a FAQ candidate, but really this is more of a subject for campaign clarifications since the question revolves around issues specific to the Core campaign organized play rules and not the Pathfinder rules as a whole. All the same, it would be nice if there were clear instructions to use the Bestiary as a source for stats for summoned creatures, rules on animal companion abilities that are not defined in the CRB (such as pounce), and feats that are not defined in the CRB (such as improved natural armor and improved natural weapon).
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Can you cite the page for me, I haven't found the wording you referenced...Mulgar;
By that logic we also get access to any and all additions to those lists...So, by your logic, I can bring my copy of Inner Sea Gods and get the expanded Summon lists.
Wouldn't this definition answer the question? You can use sanctioned material if you can achieve access to it in pc creation. Therefore this definition would allow the use of the Bestiary in using summon monster while playing the game.Core Campaign: This mode of play utilizes all of the
campaign’s currently sanctioned material, but only allows the use of the Core Rulebook, Character Traits Web Enhancement, and Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide in regards to PC creation, gaining levels, and purchasing equipment. (See page 8 for the complete rules for the Core Campaign.)
Appendix 7 page 38
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The problem is that the guide never then gives a list of books you can use after character creation. When it comes to Core, we can only use what's listed as legal the guide, which does not include the Bestiary anywhere in the text. There are posts by Mike Brock clarify options back when Core was first introduced, but he then said that these option would appear in the guide (and did indeed make it into season 7). The new guide replaces the old one, so by the Bestiary not appearing as a resource in season 8, I can see where people are saying it's no longer a legal source for Core.
The CRB allows you to use the Summon Monster spell. Which means you are allowed to use any material you need to make the spell work as a player.
You will not be violating any rules for doing your proper job as a summoning player, and having stats for your summons ready to go.
I happily invite anyone to report me for using this Judge ruling. In fact, I encourage it.
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The Core Campaign PCs no longer have access to the Bestiary so they can use the stats in there for their summoned monsters?
Can't the GMs who GM PFS games exercise their common sense?
I seem to remember in the summon monster spell descriptions they list which monsters you can summon that are in the Bestiary.
Pete, This is Myles. To me this seems like a tempest in a tea pot.
Ah Drahiliana Moonrunner has said made the point more succinctly then I.
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Really? Because all of the posts seem to be about how these "gotcha" issues are of paramount importance. Repeating the same points over and over doesn't get the issue any more on the radar.
And keeping in mind that campaign staff will have worked 18-hour days for a week straight before flying home (probably on Monday), please don't start another thread when it isn't answered Monday morning. Until then, adjudicate the grey areas as you see fit within the rules. That's why the game has a GM.
I feel that it is also been over looked that many of the animal companions special attacks and abilitys are in the bestiary too most notably scent witch is on all but one of the companions in the crb.
I would like to correct myself before someone ells dose scent is in the crb but death roll, constrict, and rake are not