Int to Panache?

[Leitner]

I have a player in an upcoming campaign that is playing a high int flying blade. She was looking at the inspired blade and their ability to add int to Panache and wondering if I'd allow her to give the same abilities with her flying blade.

So essentially she wants to add her int/cha to her panache pool and in exchange only gain panache when she comfirms a crit with a dagger. Doesn't seem to crazy to me, but what do you guys think?

[Torbyne]

It will actually end up costing her as an Inspired blade uses an 18-20 weapon and gains free improved critical with it at level 5. If she needs a crit to replenish she will be lagging far behind the normal panache curve.

[Leitner]

Torbyne wrote:

It will actually end up costing her as an Inspired blade uses an 18-20 weapon and gains free improved critical with it at level 5. If she needs a crit to replenish she will be lagging far behind the normal panache curve.

Well the flying blade also gains improved critical. So not as good since the dagger is only 19-20, but currently she has 13 cha and 16 int. She plans to put another into cha at level 4 but at the moment that would give 4 panache instead of 1. Hard to say what the better deal is really.

[Ventnor]

It shouldn't be overpowered at all, if you want to houserule it that way.

[Firebug]

Award a backstory bonus feat of "Extra Panache" for +2?
Purchase several Plumes of Panache?
To be "fair" and (not legally) combine the archetypes, an option would be to start with the Flying Blade archetype, restrict its finesse feature and panache recharge to daggers/starknives only like Inspired Blade does for rapiers and use both int/cha for panache. Its still more powerful then base Flying Blade because you will likely only use daggers anyway, but perhaps consider also dropping subtle throw deed. Disrupting Counter and Precise Throw are much too important (powerful) to trade out.

[master_marshmallow]

From a design vantage, adding a restriction to a player that isn't really a restriction because they were going to adhere to it anyway isn't a restriction at all and you're basically giving the ability away for free.

If anything, have it cost a feat.

[Leitner]

master_marshmallow wrote:

From a design vantage, adding a restriction to a player that isn't really a restriction because they were going to adhere to it anyway isn't a restriction at all and you're basically giving the ability away for free.

If anything, have it cost a feat.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. At first it obviously ends up better since with 1 panache she couldn't do much. But once the higher levels happen and with attribute bonuses and items she will recharge panache more slowly based on not gaining any from a kill.

EDIT: Like at level 3(where the campaign is starting) She'd be much stronger with 4 panache than 1. At level 10 or so if the difference was between 5 and 8 than the slower recharge is definitely a potential drawback.

[Torbyne]

Leitner wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

It will actually end up costing her as an Inspired blade uses an 18-20 weapon and gains free improved critical with it at level 5. If she needs a crit to replenish she will be lagging far behind the normal panache curve.

Well the flying blade also gains improved critical. So not as good since the dagger is only 19-20, but currently she has 13 cha and 16 int. She plans to put another into cha at level 4 but at the moment that would give 4 panache instead of 1. Hard to say what the better deal is really.

i am thinking more that an inspired blade with 15-20 threat range will have a lot more panache throughout the day than someone with a 17-20 range. 4 points is nice but its really only 3 since you need to keep one in reserve at all times to keep a lot of your abilities turned on. those three points arent going to refresh that often though, thats what i was trying to get at.

[Zwordsman]

Probably not a problem if you do it.

Another choice they could have would be siege gunner though. That gives Int to grit, which is the same pool.

[Java Man]

Gaining two panache, and not replenishing for kill shots? Seems fine, possibly a downgrade.

[Gisher]

Leitner wrote:

I have a player in an upcoming campaign that is playing a high int flying blade. She was looking at the inspired blade and their ability to add int to Panache and wondering if I'd allow her to give the same abilities with her flying blade.

So essentially she wants to add her int/cha to her panache pool and in exchange only gain panache when she comfirms a crit with a dagger. Doesn't seem to crazy to me, but what do you guys think?

I think that I would love a feat that would let a Swashbuckler use Int rather than Cha for Panache.

[chuffster]

I always looked at it that the Inspired Blade had two tradeoffs:

(1) Int to Panache but Panache only refills on crits.

(2) Free Weapon Focus on rapiers but (basically) can only use rapiers.

I think adding either of those tradeoffs to an existing archetype is fair.

[Torbyne]

chuffster wrote:

I always looked at it that the Inspired Blade had two tradeoffs:

(1) Int to Panache but Panache only refills on crits.

(2) Free Weapon Focus on rapiers but (basically) can only use rapiers.

I think adding either of those tradeoffs to an existing archetype is fair.

I wouldnt read it quite like that.. there are few weapons as good for a swashbuckler as a rapier, to force a restriction on using it isnt really a restriction as many players would have chosen it anyways. The Inspired blade then goes on to make the rapier an out and out better melee weapon than basically anything a vanilla swashbuckler could choose.

So here are the losses for the archetype:

1) Only gains panache on a natural critical.

2) Only gains panache when using a rapier.

3) Only gets finesse with rapiers

4) Loses Bleeding Wound.

Using a rapier isnt really a sacrifice, especially with the benefits they get for them, criticals are fairly easy to farm, especially once you get to level 5 so that isnt too much of a set back either. Losing Bleeding Wound I would also say is minor since it comes online at a late level and would only deal 6-8 extra damage against a portion of enemies. Say the enemy is really tough and you get that bleed to last an extra round so, 16 extra damage for a panache point. Its ok but not amazing.

Here is what they gain:

1) extra attribute to Panache

2) Free Weapon Focus

3) Free Improved Critical

4) Improved weapon training returns

5) Inspired Strike

6) Arguably better capstone

The extra attribute is huge, it allows them to completely dump Charisma since they get a minimum of one point from it no matter what actual score they have. They pay for this with Charmed Life but there is basically always a better use of actions than Charmed Life so that is not much of a trade off. Two free feats and one of those comes 4 levels early, massive pay off for little to no loss; as i said, a lot of swashbucklers would have used a rapier anyways. Better weapon training rate, just a point better but it is still a straight improvement. Inspired Strike is also, in my opinion, a straight up improvement over Bleeding Wound. By level 11 i would expect a DEX around 24, meaning around 7 bleed damage for the cost of a panache point. The Inspired Blade instead can spend two points for a boost of around a +5 to hit (assuming we are wearing a headband of int) and it is a crit so add an extra 1D6+12 (+3 weapon, +3 weapon training, +6 dex mod).. spend a whopping 3 panache to make it a crit with an extra 1D6+23. It grants accuracy which you can choose to boost an iterative attack and has scaling options to boost damage as well. Based on that, Inspired Strike is better than Bleeding Wound. Also more enemies are subject to crits than bleed damage.

The capstone isnt really something i care to look at since it comes into play basically never (again, my opinion) But from reviewing the rest of the archetype it looks like an all around improvement for anyone who wants a melee swashbuckler.

By adding this onto a flying blade what you really do is slow down panache recovery in extra for increasing attack range out to 60'. Also you have to deal with all the down side to a throwing build (multiple magical weapons, recovering weapons, running out of them, needing a metric ton of ranged combat feats)

TLDR: An inspired blade is superior to a base Swashbuckler, stacking Flying Blade to it actually drags the archetype back down closer to baseline in exchange for some neat tricks... so i guess i agree with you?