This is a fairly basic question, but I do want to confirm this for one of my other characters, and to that end this will be using 'hypothetical' examples.
Let's take a Ring of Spell Knowledge III, and say we want to put Heroism into the Ring. A simple request. But let's consider how we put the Heroism into the Ring.
If, say, a Wizard casts it, and a Sorcerer wearing the Ring succeeds his Spellcraft check, then that gives the spell to the Sorcerer as one of his spells known. (There's always Pages of Spell Knowledge for this sort of thing, but a Page of Spell Knowledge may not be able to perform the next part I'm suggesting.)
Now, let's take that same Sorcerer, wearing a similar Ring (without the spell), and put him in a much similar situation, except it is a Bard who casts the spell.
For Bards, Heroism is a 2nd level spell, and a Ring of Spell Knowledge III would overcompensate for that. But let's say our Sorcerer has a Ring of Spell Knowledge II instead. Does that same Sorcerer gain the ability to cast Heroism as a 2nd level spell like the Bard, as a spell known, due to the effects of the Ring? Or, does it default to a 3rd level spell and is therefore not eligible for the Ring of Spell Knowledge II, because the spell level, even if it's on his class list, functions as if he were casting it from his spell list?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Ask your GM.
There is no rule explicitly covering this, and depending on your GM it is allowed or disallowed.
There is a FAQ for how to handle spells enhanced (metamagic) and the FAQ advises to charge the slot that is most disadvantage to the PC. Some GM may take cues from that in this case to enforce it is 3rd level slot.
If you ask me as a GM, I'd allow it to be a 2nd level slot that way.
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A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer's class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
Heroism - level 2 spell in the bard list don't appear in a sorcerer spell list, it has Heroism - level 3 sorcerer/wizard spell, so the bolded part would apply an the spell would be treated as a third level spell.
Heroism - level 2 spell in the bard list don't appear in a sorcerer spell list, it has Heroism - level 3 sorcerer/wizard spell, so the bolded part would apply an the spell would be treated as a third level spell.
Would that mean a Cure Light Wounds spell from a cleric, for example, is a level 1 arcane spell in a ring of spell knowledge? Or is it not even allowed since it would be a divine source?
While the ring notes a spell level increase for Arcane spells not on the users class list, it never says non arcane spells cannot be learned using the ring.
I myself lean to the ruling that non arcane spells are not even allowed but I would be interested to see what other people think or have done in there games in this regard.
My GM wants to let me learn anything using the rings on my Sorcerer. I have purposely NOT done divine spells, to limit myself, as I don't think that is the intent.
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I'm pretty sure it needs to be an Arcane spell. There are two situations:
1) It is a spell on your spell list. You can learn it at its normal level.
2) It is an Arcane spell not on your spell list. You can learn it at as a spell 1 level higher.
Divine spells don't satisfy either of those conditions. They cannot be put into the ring.
You could, however, learn Cure Light Wounds as a 2nd level spell by watching a Bard or Witch cast it.
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A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer's class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
Heroism - level 2 spell in the bard list don't appear in a sorcerer spell list, it has Heroism - level 3 sorcerer/wizard spell, so the bolded part would apply an the spell would be treated as a third level spell.
The level bump only applies if it's not on your spell list. Heroism is on the Sorcerer's spell list, just as a 3rd level spell. It doesn't matter if it's on his list as a 4th level spell, 5th level spell, or even a 10th level spell (which is impossible, but still); if it's on his list of spells he can learn as a Sorcerer, then the level bump for storage or casting requirement from not being on his spell list would not apply. Full stop.
The ultimate question stems from whether he would cast it at a spell level it's cast as (in the case of Heroism, Haste, etc.), or if it defaults to what his spell level is if he already has it on his spell list.
**EDIT**
@ Gilfalas: As Ferious Thune states, spells like Cure X Wounds do appear on the Bard and Witch spell list, so you could learn up to Cure Serious Wounds as a 4th level spell from the ring, but it's not particularly worth it. Which is why I was more curious about things like being able to cast Haste or Heroism as a 2nd level spell, and not having a level bump because the spells are still on your spell list.
A little cheap and munchkin-y, though being able to apply sweet buffs sooner, at the cost of ~6,000 gold, spell slots, and a valued Ring slot, should be a fair trade...
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A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer's class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
Heroism - level 2 spell in the bard list don't appear in a sorcerer spell list, it has Heroism - level 3 sorcerer/wizard spell, so the bolded part would apply an the spell would be treated as a third level spell.
The level bump only applies if it's not on your spell list. Heroism is on the Sorcerer's spell list, just as a 3rd level spell. It doesn't matter if it's on his list as a 4th level spell, 5th level spell, or even a 10th level spell (which is impossible, but still); if it's on his list of spells he can learn as a Sorcerer, then the level bump for storage or casting requirement from not being on his spell list would not apply. Full stop.
The ultimate question stems from whether he would cast it at a spell level it's cast as (in the case of Heroism, Haste, etc.), or if it defaults to what his spell level is if he already has it on his spell list.
**EDIT**
@ Gilfalas: As Ferious Thune states, spells like Cure X Wounds do appear on the Bard and Witch spell list, so you could learn up to Cure Serious Wounds as a 4th level spell from the ring, but it's not particularly worth it. Which is why I was more curious about things like being able to cast Haste or Heroism as a 2nd level spell, and not having a level bump because the spells are still on your spell list.
A little cheap and munchkin-y, though being able to apply sweet buffs sooner, at the cost of ~6,000 gold, spell slots, and a valued Ring slot, should be a fair trade...
No Darksol, a spell isn't simply "Heroism", it is its full description.
Heroism - level 2 bard spell is different from Heroism - level 3 wizard spell and Cure light wound level 1 bard is different from Cure light wound level 1 cleric. Sometime they even have different components.If you have a ring os spell storing, minor, you can put a bard heroism with a CL of 4 and a Bard clw with a Cl of 1 in it or a wizard heroism with a CL of 5.
Those spells use the same description for space reasons, but they are different spells in different lists.
I concur. heroism is a spell, and is the same spell for all intents and purposes, counterspell being the biggest justification, regardless of what level a particular class prepares it at.
I would rule in favor of the ring of spell knowledge, and allow it to function per RAW. So, congrats, to the sorcerer with magic item and ring slot used - - and gets his 2nd level heroism.
I can find no official rules to contract this viewpoint.
YIDM
...A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer's class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
Heroism - level 2 spell in the bard list don't appear in a sorcerer spell list, it has Heroism - level 3 sorcerer/wizard spell, so the bolded part would apply an the spell would be treated as a third level spell.
The level bump only applies if it's not on your spell list. Heroism is on the Sorcerer's spell list, just as a 3rd level spell. It doesn't matter if it's on his list as a 4th level spell, 5th level spell, or even a 10th level spell (which is impossible, but still); if it's on his list of spells he can learn as a Sorcerer, then the level bump for storage or casting requirement from not being on his spell list would not apply. Full stop.
The ultimate question stems from whether he would cast it at a spell level it's cast as (in the case of Heroism, Haste, etc.), or if it defaults to what his spell level is if he already has it on his spell list.
**EDIT**
@ Gilfalas: As Ferious Thune states, spells like Cure X Wounds do appear on the Bard and Witch spell list, so you could learn up to Cure Serious Wounds as a 4th level spell from the ring, but it's not particularly worth it. Which is why I was more curious about things like being able to cast Haste or Heroism as a 2nd level spell, and not having a level bump because the spells are still on your spell list.
A little cheap and munchkin-y, though being able to apply sweet buffs sooner, at the cost of ~6,000 gold, spell slots, and a valued Ring slot, should be a
Please tell me you're not serious. PLEASE tell me you're not seriously saying that the Heroism from a Bard and the Heroism from a Wizard are not the same thing.
If so, then I can stack Haste from a Summoner and Haste from a Sorcerer all day long, because you're telling me they're not the same spell. Or other "same source" abuse, which is clearly not intended.
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Please tell me you're not serious. PLEASE tell me you're not seriously saying that the Heroism from a Bard and the Heroism from a Wizard are not the same thing.
If so, then I can stack Haste from a Summoner and Haste from a Sorcerer all day long, because you're telling me they're not the same spell. Or other "same source" abuse, which is clearly not intended.
Multiple haste effects don't stack.
It don't care about the source of the haste effect.
The counterspell argument is a good point, but then we get the opposite point: if they are exactly the same spell, a wizard can make a scroll of Heroism, level 2 spell?
After all if they are exactly the same spell and he has his version of heroism memorized he is fulfilling the crafting requirement when he make the scroll.
Or the same wizard can copy a bard made scroll of heroism level 2 in his spellbook? And what version of the spell he will write, the level 3 version that is in his spell list or a level 2 version that he can't memorize?
As often happen the situation isn't back or white, but nuanced.
When making a scroll, making a potion, putting a spell in a ring of spell storing, learning a spell from a scroll and (I feel) using the ring of spell knowledge, the list from which the spell is coming matter.
For counterspelling it shouldn't matter.
Had this argument with my GM, and he ruled that it was at the higher level. But I took it a bit further.
I argued that, at least to me, the text doesn't stipulate that the spell must be an arcane one. It states that you must do a spellcheck to teach a spell to the ring, and that once learned it becomes part of you spell list. It doesn't say only arcane spells, just spells. So in theory, any observed spell in the right level range should be fair game.
It then goes on to say if it's not normally on your spell list then it's slot level is +1. Here it explicitly state arcane spells that aren't on your list are treated as +1. So a divine lesser restoration spell in the ring is cast as a arcane level 2 spell :)
He didn't buy that argument either.
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It just doesn't work that way. Your haste example is not a good one as you can get haste effects from different spells as well as magic items.
Darksol example. And he forgot that bonus of the same kind don't stack, regardless of the source. so 2 heroism effects can't stack as the bonuses are all morale bonuses.
It's not only counterspelling, it's spell completion and spell trigger items.
Ok.
If you had a bard supplying the level 2 heroism spell, sure you could make a Level 2 Heroism scroll.
If it is exactly the same spell, what stop a wizard from scribing a scroll of Heroism level 2?
Limitations of scribe scroll:
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires."
So if Heroism level 2 bard = Heroism level 3 wizard, why the wizard can't write either versions? or make a wand of either versions?
If they are different we have problems with spell completion and spell trigger items use and with counterspelling.
Either way we have to houserule as something break.
...A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer's class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
Heroism - level 2 spell in the bard list don't appear in a sorcerer spell list, it has Heroism - level 3 sorcerer/wizard spell, so the bolded part would apply an the spell would be treated as a third level spell.
The level bump only applies if it's not on your spell list. Heroism is on the Sorcerer's spell list, just as a 3rd level spell. It doesn't matter if it's on his list as a 4th level spell, 5th level spell, or even a 10th level spell (which is impossible, but still); if it's on his list of spells he can learn as a Sorcerer, then the level bump for storage or casting requirement from not being on his spell list would not apply. Full stop.
The ultimate question stems from whether he would cast it at a spell level it's cast as (in the case of Heroism, Haste, etc.), or if it defaults to what his spell level is if he already has it on his spell list.
**EDIT**
@ Gilfalas: As Ferious Thune states, spells like Cure X Wounds do appear on the Bard and Witch spell list, so you could learn up to Cure Serious Wounds as a 4th level spell from the ring, but it's not particularly worth it. Which is why I was more curious about things like being able to cast Haste or Heroism as a 2nd level spell, and not having a level bump because the spells are still on your spell list.
A little cheap and munchkin-y, though being able to apply sweet buffs sooner, at the cost of ~6,000 gold, spell slots, and a
The truth of the matter is that they are the same spell for some purposes, and different spells for others. It's not all one way or the other.
James Risner has it right. They're the same spell. If I perform a Spellcraft check to identify Heroism being cast, then I shouldn't get two different results. It's either Heroism, or not Heroism. It can't be both, or some inane, yet almost identical result.
**EDIT** Posted too soon. Whoops.
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It's not an issue. If the Sorcerer is taking it from a Bard's casting, he's essentially using the spell from another class's list instead of his own, which bumps it up one level... from 2nd to 3rd in this case.
Wrong. Heroism is on both lists, so no level adjustment.
Wrong. Heroism is on both lists, so no level adjustment.
But when you are copying it off a Bard, you're not using the Sorcerer's list, but the Bard's list. Just like you would be if you were copying his Cure Light Wounds spell. The ring of Spell knowledge is not intended to enable you to cheese your way into casting one of your class spells at a lower level.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Reading words not there is as bad as inserting words not there.
We understand from context that if the spell isn't the same as a spell on their class spell list, you add a level. A 2nd Bard Heroism isn't the same as a 3rd Sorcerer Heroism.
If you ignore context (and most all of the FAQ answers are compensating for ignored context), then you might conclude no level adjust.
If you consider context, you add 1 level to the 2nd Bard spell because Sorcerers don't have 2nd version of Heroism on their list.
It's not an issue. If the Sorcerer is taking it from a Bard's casting, he's essentially using the spell from another class's list instead of his own, which bumps it up one level... from 2nd to 3rd in this case.
It doesn't matter if the spell is on another class' list. You're putting restrictions to the ring that are simply not stated in the description. I'll cite it again:
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer's class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
So now, we're taking a spell. It's called Heroism.
Can a Sorcerer cast it? Yes, because on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, it is a 3rd level spell. This means that Heroism is on the Sorcerer's spell list. So, if I were to encounter Heroism, cast as a 3rd level spell from a Wizard as an example, I could then teach Heroism to the ring via Spellcraft, and it becomes one of my spells known (if I didn't already know it), and that it's a part of my class list, but that statement doesn't detract from the factor that it's already on my class' spell list.
So, because the spell is on my class list, the spell is not treated as one level higher for storage and casting. The only way the spell is treated as one level higher for storage and casting would be if the spell is not on my class list.
And both you and Diego are saying that it isn't on the Sorcerer's class list, even though the PRD would strongly disagree with you.
Seriously, how are you two arriving to the conclusion of Schrodinger's Spell, where it is both on, and not on, the Sorcerer's class list? Walk us through the steps, because quite frankly, stating that they are two different spell levels for different classes doesn't change anything according to how you adjust the spell levels for the wearer when the spell is not on their class list.
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Ironically, i had this situation come up in a scenario at PaizoCon.
My Gnome Sorcerer w/ Ring-SKII found a wand with Heroism on it (and four charges). After expending the charges for the final fight, he asked if it was on sorcerer spell list and if so, what level.
I was told yes, and it was second level spell. So i imprinted it on the ring.
I even had the GM mark it on my chronicle, that i had done so.
Looking into it myself, it's only available to Sorcerers as a third level spell, thus not legal for my sorcerer's ring. If i had a level of Bard, then possibly- but no.
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The wizard can't supply a level 2 Heroism spell because when he casts it, he must use a level 3 slot.
If he is supplied with a level 2 Heroism spell source, such as from the bard, then he can scribe the scroll using that source.
Stone shape is a level 4 wizard spell, and a level 3 cleric spell.
If the cleric uses scribe scroll to make a scroll of stone shape, what level is it? What about if the wizard does it?
Not sure what you mean be 'breaking', there is no breaking involved.
So the two spells aren't identical and my initial argument stand.
You can't support both position, either they are identical for all purposes or they aren't identical.
Reading words not there is as bad as inserting words not there.
We understand from context that if the spell isn't the same as a spell on their class spell list, you add a level. A 2nd Bard Heroism isn't the same as a 3rd Sorcerer Heroism.
If you ignore context (and most all of the FAQ answers are compensating for ignored context), then you might conclude no level adjust.
If you consider context, you add 1 level to the 2nd Bard spell because Sorcerers don't have 2nd version of Heroism on their list.
What are you talking about? There is no such spell called "2nd level Heroism", there is a spell called "Heroism", and various casters can cast it at various levels.
Both Bards and Sorcerers have the exact same spell on their class lists, that's why they can use spell completion to use wands crafted by the other person.
It's the same exact spell.
Given your first sentence, I really don't understand why you think 'context' means inventing words that aren't there. Heck, you've completely changed the magic system if you are claiming that a Bard's Heroism is not the same spell as a Sorcerer's Heroism. You just broke it.
So now they are again identical in all respects? Choose a position or admit that they are not always identical, please.
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James Risner has it right. They're the same spell. If I perform a Spellcraft check to identify Heroism being cast, then I shouldn't get two different results. It's either Heroism, or not Heroism. It can't be both, or some inane, yet almost identical result.
**EDIT** Posted too soon. Whoops.
Identify a spell as it is being cast 15 + spell level
Actually the Bard version is easier to identify.
And:Every bard spell has a verbal component (song, recitation, or music).
Not relevant to Heroism, but that make some bard spell different.
The spells are different for some thing, identical for others. Until we get a official list of the thinks in which they are different it is the job of the GM to decide.
This GM think that for a ring of spell knowledge they are different.
Ironically, i had this situation come up in a scenario at PaizoCon.
My Gnome Sorcerer w/ Ring-SKII found a wand with Heroism on it (and four charges). After expending the charges for the final fight, he asked if it was on sorcerer spell list and if so, what level.
I was told yes, and it was second level spell. So i imprinted it on the ring.
I even had the GM mark it on my chronicle, that i had done so.Looking into it myself, it's only available to Sorcerers as a third level spell, thus not legal for my sorcerer's ring. If i had a level of Bard, then possibly- but no.
If it wasn't legal, then the GM wouldn't have given you the okay to apply it to your ring, and if he didn't, it would have been on the grounds that it would be a 3rd level spell, because you don't have the spell on your class list. But you do.
If anything, the VC or whoever is in charge would've had to vet it, and say if it was or was not legal. Based on the lack of change, I'd have to say that it was, in fact, legal.
**EDIT** The quote answered my own original question of what spell slot it uses. It's official now; if I can apply Heroism as a 2nd level spell to my ring, and cast it as a 2nd level spell in PFS, then there is an official precedent to go off of for applying the same spell of a lower level to the slot.
And to be honest, I don't see it being broken when ran this way. You're requiring niche specifics, still using up spell slots, as well as burning WBL and a much-valued Ring slot to do this. I'd let a PC do it, and I'd applaud his ingenuity. He'll just need to learn that the bad guys can do that as well.
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You guys need to go back to the item description -
This ring comes in four types: ring of spell knowledge I, ring of spell knowledge II, ring of spell knowledge III, and ring of spell knowledge IV. All of them are useful only to spontaneous arcane spellcasters.
Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level. A ring of spell knowledge I can hold 1st-level spells only, a ring of spell knowledge II 1st- or 2nd-level spells, a ring of spell knowledge III spells of 3rd level or lower, and a ring of spell knowledge IV up to 4th-level spells.
A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer’s class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
It ALREADY appears on the sorcerer's spell list, so the sorcerer treats it as if they know it.
Now - they can save some $ by getting a bard to cast Heroism on a Ring of Spell Knowledge II, but they still cast it as a 3rd level spell.
It DOES NOT say "as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list at the ring's level".
Heroism is always Heroism, and the level of the ring is only relevant in what it can hold, not for the spell level that it gives you.
Bard puts a 2nd level spell in, you use it as a 2nd level spell if it's on your class list. The level of the spell does not change in this case, so you get Heroism out of a level 2 slot.
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Bard puts a 2nd level spell in, you use it as a 2nd level spell if it's on your class list. The level of the spell does not change in this case, so you get Heroism out of a level 2 slot.
Please actually provide proof of the bolded statement being true. Nowhere does it say that you cast it at the spell level of the ring or the spell level of whoever put it into the ring.
Either -
A. Heroism is always the same spell, so it's already on the sorcerer spell list at 3rd level.
B. The bard spell is an entirely different spell, so the sorcerer casts it +1 spell level (3rd).
I lean towards interpretation A, but it doesn't matter because they have the same end result. The only way to argue for it to be cast at 2nd level is to use internally inconsistent reasoning.
You could just read the item.
1) Is it on my list?
1a) No. Increase its spell level by 1.
1b) Yes, cast it at the level used by the ring(type 1 for 1st leve, 2 for 2nd level)
It doesn't work both ways. If the bard cast Cure Moderate into the ring it's 3rd level for the Sorcerer, right? Cure Light a 2nd level? The ring determines what spell slot a spell uses, so Heroism from a Bard uses 2nd level slots.
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It doesn't work both ways. If the bard cast Cure Moderate into the ring it's 3rd level for the Sorcerer, right? Cure Light a 2nd level?
That's because Cure Light & Cure Moderate are not on the sorcerer class list and are therefore used at the bard spell level +1.
Heroism is on the sorcerer spell list, so you use the sorcerer spell level.
Your logic is the epitome of working it both ways. You want to use the fact that it's on the sorcerer spell list to prevent adding +1 spell level and at the same time ignore that it's on the sorcerer spell list and use the bard spell level.
You can't have it both ways.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Bard puts a 2nd level spell in, you use it as a 2nd level spell if it's on your class list. The level of the spell does not change in this case, so you get Heroism out of a level 2 slot.Please actually provide proof of the bolded statement being true.
He has none, other than his stance of "look at these words - they only mean what I say as only I'm in charge of comprehension of these words".
Either way the sorcerer would cast heroism from 3rd level slots from either of these methods:
You guys need to go back to the item description -
This ring comes in four types: ring of spell knowledge I, ring of spell knowledge II, ring of spell knowledge III, and ring of spell knowledge IV. All of them are useful only to spontaneous arcane spellcasters.
Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level. A ring of spell knowledge I can hold 1st-level spells only, a ring of spell knowledge II 1st- or 2nd-level spells, a ring of spell knowledge III spells of 3rd level or lower, and a ring of spell knowledge IV up to 4th-level spells.
A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer’s class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
It ALREADY appears on the sorcerer's spell list, so the sorcerer treats it as if they know it.
Now - they can save some $ by getting a bard to cast Heroism on a Ring of Spell Knowledge II, but they still cast it as a 3rd level spell.
It DOES NOT say "as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list at the ring's level".
Heroism is always Heroism, and the level of the ring is only relevant in what it can hold, not for the spell level that it gives you.
Solid logic, but there's still one issue to tackle; you're not learning the spell through normal means, i.e. through leveling up or spending feats/FCB. So you can't say that you are learning the spell as a 3rd level spell, because that's the normal way you would learn the spell. Using the ring to provide you a spell known is not normal, nor can you assume that it follows the same rules and restrictions, which it clearly doesn't, as it can give you access to spells not normally on your class list.
You're trying to apply the rules from a Page of Spell Knowledge to the Ring of Spell Knowledge; similar, and probably a good idea, but not the same, nor do they share the same rules, or restrictions.
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So you can't say that you are learning the spell as a 3rd level spell, because that's the normal way you would learn the spell.
You're inventing a mechanic.
There is no such seperate mechanic where you learn a spell "as an X level spell". You just learn spells which are various levels and cast them at the level of the spell. For sorcerers Heroism is a 3rd level, and so they cast it as a 3rd level spell.
So you can't say that you are learning the spell as a 3rd level spell, because that's the normal way you would learn the spell.You're inventing a mechanic.
There is no such seperate mechanic where you learn a spell "as an X level spell". You just learn spells which are various levels and cast them at the level of the spell. For sorcerers Heroism is a 3rd level, and so they cast it as a 3rd level spell.
I didn't invent any mechanic, that mechanic has been there. I stated nothing new, that a Sorcerer normally learns and casts Heroism as a 3rd level spell. A Bard normally learns and casts Heroism as a 2nd level spell, even though all other classes cast Heroism as a 3rd level spell as well, so yes, there is such a thing as "an X level spell," and the above is proof of that.
What I'm saying is that the specific benefit of the Ring of Spell Knowledge granting you access to any single Arcane spell might trump the general rule of spells known due to its mechanics.
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I didn't invent any mechanic, that mechanic has been there. I stated nothing new, that a Sorcerer normally learns and casts Heroism as a 3rd level spell.
There is no learning spells 'as an X level spell'.
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
Nowhere in there does it mention learning spells as anything other than a spell. They learn spells from their list as indicated, and then they cast them from their list as indicated.
Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerer. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
Heroism is a 3rd level spell on their list, therefore they cast it as a 3rd level spell.
A Ring of Spell Knowledge provides a specific exception IF a spell isn't on the caster's spell list. No other exception.
To trump the general rules above requires a specific exception.
Bard puts a 2nd level spell in, you use it as a 2nd level spell if it's on your class list. The level of the spell does not change in this case, so you get Heroism out of a level 2 slot.Please actually provide proof of the bolded statement being true.He has none, other than his stance of "look at these words - they only mean what I say as only I'm in charge of comprehension of these words".
Either way the sorcerer would cast heroism from 3rd level slots from either of these methods:
Its on my spell list so I use it as a spell known, using 3rd level slots.
Its not on my list at 2nd, so I add a level and use it as 3rd.
Reading the words as written should be good enough. You're adding limitations that aren't there.
If you add a 2nd level spell to you spells known and class list, it's a second level spell. That simple.
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If you add a 2nd level spell to you spells known and class list, it's a second level spell. That simple.
It's not a 2nd level spell. It's a spell which happens to be 2nd level for the bard - but it's 3rd level for the sorcerer.
Specific trumps general, but there is no specific that says what you claim, so you stick with general.
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Someone want to make a FAQ out of this? We have two strongly polarized camps and only a FAQ would resolve the issue.
@Darksol: even if a VC has approved adding Heroism as a second level spell in a ring it don't prove much. VC are experienced GMs, but they make errors as all other human beings. If you read the Society section of the forums you will see plenty of examples.