variant multiclassing

[doomman47]

say i variant multi class into fighter would i gain fighter class skills armour/weapon proficiency and access to fighter feats?

[Rysky]

No.

Fighter Variant Multiclassing wrote:

A character who chooses fighter as his secondary class gains the following secondary class features.

Bravery: At 3rd level, he gains the bravery class feature as a fighter of his character level – 1.

Armor Training 1: At 7th level, he gains armor training 1.

Weapon Training 1: At 11th level, he gains weapon training 1.

Armor Training 2: At 15th level, he gains armor training 2.

Weapon Training 2: At 19th level, he gains weapon training 2.

This is all VMC gives you.

[Lord Foul II]

You could argue that it qualifies you to be counted as a fighter of a very own level for the purpose of qualifying for feats but you wouldn't get any bonus feats and you wouldn't get any of the rest of that

[David knott 242]

You would count as a fighter, but you would not have a fighter level (so you would never qualify for the Weapon Specialization feat, for example). Cases where you would have a class level for your secondary class for some reason are specifically called out.

[Lord Foul II]

So you'd count as fighter level 1 regardless of actual level?

[David knott 242]

You would meet the qualification of "Fighter" but not "Fighter 1st level", "Fighter 4th level", etc.

[machii]

David knott 242 wrote:

You would meet the qualification of "Fighter" but not "Fighter 1st level", "Fighter 4th level", etc.

The way I interpret the Variant Mutliclassing is that the secondary, variant class is acquired as first level in that respective class, but cannot advance additional levels past level 1. This is supported by the official text included with Variant Multiclassing:

"such as a barbarian whose rage stems from being afflicted by the gods with an oracle’s curse and revelations."
Oracle's only gain a curse at level 1; therefore, Variant Multiclassing must count the secondary variant as level 1.
If secondary variant's weren't counted as having a level they would for the most part only be good for acquiring weapon and armor proficiencies as most all class features have level 1 as a prerequisite.

[Lady-J]

well this could be looked at multiple ways 1st lets say they have a fighter level equal to their character level, 2nd the bravery ability scales at character lvl-1 so fighter level would be character level -1 and last lets say that the character would count as a character of that class for the minimum lvl needed to acquire those abilities so for a fighter so lvl 2 fighter for lvl 3, lvl 3 fighter at level 7, lvl 5 at level 11, level 7 at level 15 and level 9 at level 19

[machii]

Lady-J wrote:

well this could be looked at multiple ways 1st lets say they have a fighter level equal to their character level, 2nd the bravery ability scales at character lvl-1 so fighter level would be character level -1 and last lets say that the character would count as a character of that class for the minimum lvl needed to acquire those abilities so for a fighter so lvl 2 fighter for lvl 3, lvl 3 fighter at level 7, lvl 5 at level 11, level 7 at level 15 and level 9 at level 19

With respect, at that point you're making up rules. Trading a single feat for a level 19 class feature is incredibly unbalanced.

[dragonhunterq]

machii wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

You would meet the qualification of "Fighter" but not "Fighter 1st level", "Fighter 4th level", etc.

The way I interpret the Variant Mutliclassing is that the secondary, variant class is acquired as first level in that respective class, but cannot advance additional levels past level 1. This is supported by the official text included with Variant Multiclassing:

"such as a barbarian whose rage stems from being afflicted by the gods with an oracle’s curse and revelations."
Oracle's only gain a curse at level 1; therefore, Variant Multiclassing must count the secondary variant as level 1.
If secondary variant's weren't counted as having a level they would for the most part only be good for acquiring weapon and armor proficiencies as most all class features have level 1 as a prerequisite.

That is really not how it works! When you get a class ability from a class has absolutely no relevance as to when VMC grants you an ability.

You count as your VMC class, but you don't have levels in it. You only have effective levels in your VMC class when it tells you you do and only for the purpose it tells you it does.

[machii]

dragonhunterq wrote:

machii wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

You would meet the qualification of "Fighter" but not "Fighter 1st level", "Fighter 4th level", etc.

The way I interpret the Variant Mutliclassing is that the secondary, variant class is acquired as first level in that respective class, but cannot advance additional levels past level 1. This is supported by the official text included with Variant Multiclassing:

"such as a barbarian whose rage stems from being afflicted by the gods with an oracle’s curse and revelations."
Oracle's only gain a curse at level 1; therefore, Variant Multiclassing must count the secondary variant as level 1.
If secondary variant's weren't counted as having a level they would for the most part only be good for acquiring weapon and armor proficiencies as most all class features have level 1 as a prerequisite.

That is really not how it works! When you get a class ability from a class has absolutely no relevance as to when VMC grants you an ability.

You count as your VMC class, but you don't have levels in it. You only have effective levels in your VMC class when it tells you you do and only for the purpose it tells you it does.

You're completely correct.

What's funny is that I never bothered to look at the Variant, Secondary Class Features table provided and based my logic solely from the Text description of Variant Multiclassing.

Not really sure how I feel about Variant multiclassing anymore. I get the balance, but it still seems quite overpowered.

[Gisher]

machii wrote:

...

You're completely correct.
What's funny is that I never bothered to look at the Variant, Secondary Class Features table provided and based my logic solely from the Text description of Variant Multiclassing.

Not really sure how I feel about Variant multiclassing anymore. I get the balance, but it still seems quite overpowered.

Honestly, it is almost always underpowered. The opportunity cost of giving up five feats is usually huge both because many feats are really good and because it delays the progression of your feat chains. Lots of combos end up getting you some abilities that you can't even use (like Spellstrike from VMC Magus if you lack Spells). There are some cases where you do have good synergy between a class and a VMC option, but I wouldn't even characterize those as overpowered. Secret Wizard's Guide to Variant Multiclassing has a good breakdown of the advantages and disadvantages. There is also a newer guide that I haven't had a chance to look at yet.

[DeathlessOne]

You can always make Spellstrike useful to martial classes by taking Pool Strike as an arcana. It doesn't make it amazing, but makes it not useless.

[Gisher]

DeathlessOne wrote:

You can always make Spellstrike useful to martial classes by taking Pool Strike as an arcana. It doesn't make it amazing, but makes it not useless.

It's true that it isn't actually unusable. It is really ineffective by the time you get Spellstrike at 11th level, but you can use it.

[DeathlessOne]

Hmm, useless? Nah, just a niche ability. Slap it on a crit focused build and double the damage from Pool Strike. There are even new pool strike abilities that enhance it. Just need to take Extra Arcana, since Magus VMC doesn't explicitly tell you that you can't. Probably only decent on a chassis that gets many bonus feats.