Balancing an encounter to stall them, but not beat them.


Advice


I have an encounter in mind in which a hellknight and crew are executing NPCs that the PCs might want to rescue, recruit, and get information from. The setup involves all those NPCs individually tied up inside a room, and that room being set on fire. A backdrop of the NPCs screaming and dying in the background while the hellknight and her flunkies try to prevent the PCs from getting to them in time.

The longer the PCs take, the more captive NPCs burn to death. I'm looking for some advice in balancing this in such a way as to make the enemies a credible enough threat to bar the PCs' progress and slow them down, but not so good at it that all the captive NPCs die before the PCs can get to them (which would probably take about 9 rounds).

The PCs are all 4th level. They consist of a sword & pistol gunslinger (who will probably shine if he goes against a heavily armoured opponent here), an oracle who fights at medium or so range with an extending polearm, and a melee finesse fighter 1/cleric 3 who usually takes the front-lines.

The hellknight is low-ranking and doesn't actually have to have levels in either of the hellknight prestige classes yet. She's likely to be a cleric, fighter, inquisitor, or warpriest, but her class isn't set in stone. Her flunkies will likely be just 1st or 2nd level warriors, and I'm not sure how many of them to include. The enemies would be built more for stalling than for taking the PCs down (the real threat is the fire killing the NPCs in the background), and I'm not exactly sure what to go for since I'm aiming to do that instead of just having the NPCs fight to take them down as though it were a normal combat.

Obviously can't be totally precise, but I'm aiming to try and stall them for 6 or so rounds out of 9 or so to ensure this feels like a just-in-time rescue. With that in mind, what should I be going for to build this stuff? Levels, numbers, spells, equipment, any particular tactics, etc.


You could have the fire "come to the rescue" in a way, by having it burn through the prisoners bonds at a certain point. That way, it doesn't really matter how slow the party might be (though they should never realize it), but the captives will certainly suffer more the longer everything takes.

Another idea could be to have the PCs fight summoned monsters, who'll simply vanish when their timers run out.


Give the hellknight high touch AC through dodge and deflection bonus's to try bypass the gunslinger trivialising him. Make abundant use of cover. Hit and run further away from the scene of the fight. Use of difficult terrain spells like entangle.

Another option is make the npcs more levels and don't have them fight to kill. Turn them into recurring villains. The hell knights job is to delay. Not kill. So after 7 rounds he just flees believing he has done his job.

Edit:
Or have him absolutely destroy the party in 3 or 4 rounds, but leave them alive. Just unable to fight. The hellknight gloats and then leaves them. The cleric then has to get everyone e standing through channel and then go rescue the npcs... This scenario is easier if you can roll in secret so you can customise the damage you deal to jot actually kill anyone


VRMH wrote:

You could have the fire "come to the rescue" in a way, by having it burn through the prisoners bonds at a certain point. That way, it doesn't really matter how slow the party might be (though they should never realize it), but the captives will certainly suffer more the longer everything takes.

Another idea could be to have the PCs fight summoned monsters, who'll simply vanish when their timers run out.

Heh. I think the fire burning through bonds would be a bit too obvious. They're clever enough that they'd recognize that as a "There was never actually any rush" moment, which could ruin it. Same with summoned enemies disappearing just in time for the PCs to save everyone.

There should be an actual chance of all the NPCs dying. Ideally that won't come to pass, but the chance of it is important.

I do like entangle as an option. Maybe a ranger hellknight? Or a hunter, with a nice intimidating animal companion? Are there any other ways to do something similar with any of the classes I had in mind? Any ways the flunkies might help facilitate that sort of delay rather than just being warm chunks of hp in the party's path?


What races are you using?

A cleric with animal domain gets access to an animal companion at 4th. And the plant domain grants entangle as it's first level spell. From what I can tell at least.

I ask about races because if you can get a small race or especially goblins and focus on the stealth skills they can use sniping to throw tangle foot bags and entangle people. Have then start doing that to the pcs before they get anywhere near the warehouse or wherever the npcs are.

Quick math for stealth skill: +3 dex, +4 small, +1 rank, +3 class, +4 for goblin, +3 skill focus stealth.
At level one that gives a total = +18
The penalty for sniping is normally -20
There are rogue talents that reduce that by 10.

They would make perfect delaying hit and runners

Going to try find those talents and get a list for you


Rogue talents: camouflage, stealthy sniper

Feats: stealthy, stealth synergy, probably others.

Brilliant item to use:

Elixir of Hiding
Aura faint illusion; CL 5th
Slot none; Price 250 gp; Weight —
Description
A character drinking this liquid gains an intuitive ability to sneak and hide (+10 competence bonus on Stealth checks for 1 hour).

So you can use that and lvl 3 rogue minions to get a stealth bonus in the region of +30...

what is the highest perception mod in the party?


This archetype let's you take 10 too and let's you add some more stuff to stealth.


The races that would make most sense for these enemies based on the setting of the encounter would be human, half orc, tiefling, and perhaps tengu, but it's not impossible for individuals of other races to be involved. At least some of the enemies need to actually stand and fight to bar the way, but a stealthy mook or two wouldn't be a terrible idea

I'd forgotten about tanglefoot bags. Even if the enemies stay completely out in the open, those make good options. Plant domain for entangle is also great. It's the group's homebrew setting, and a bit light on deities, but there is a NE deity who could provide that to a LE aspiring-hellknight cleric.


Also potions of invisibility for another +20 while moving.

Or dust of disappearance

and that grants greater invisibility so you can attack and they dont even see you


For a few fighting minions may I suggest some undead for your evil cleric to heal with channel negative energy? Flaming skeletons are always scary. Or just hordes of 15 he or so zombies and skeletons intermingled to just get in the way, and not die due to healing from the evil cleric.

Another good option is evil "paladins" Because I am now too lazy to check if anti paladins get lay on hands for healing. They have good saves. Good armor. And can swift action heal so they don't die


Ok antipaladins don't get heals technically, but it is a home brew so meh. Another fun option could be skeleton champion paladins... pump their cha so they have massive health and it's a primary status for antipaladins. Also they can then use their touch of corruption ability to heal themselves


Entangle and Pit spells are great for stalling. If it's a public execution, throwing in Crowd rules is a great way to cause PC's a bit of hesitation, too, for fear of accidentally killing an innocent bystander. Your NPC's will also have an easy source for cover.


A good stalling technique for melee is to have the grunts fight defensively (or even, if the terrain allows them to block access to the NPCs, have them take the total defense action). The flunkies can do that - they'll have hardly any chance of hitting the PCs, but they will be harder to hit and therefore harder to clear out of the way. If it looks like that tactic is being TOO effective, you can always have the Hellknight sneer and say something like: "Now finish them." Then send the flunkies in much less carefully, virtually assuring their deaths.

How many NPCs have you got? What is the minimum number you want to survive? It is certainly plausible that they might take different amounts of fire damage each round and/or start with different total HP. You don't necessarily have to be perfect about tracking that - you can pre-decide that, say, round 8 the weakest NPC loses consciousness and dies on round 9. If the PCs are moving more quickly, you can adjust the apparent damage taken and if they're moving more slowly, you can still keep the minimum number of NPCs alive, while having a few die.

Another way to increase the tension is to impose, for this scene only, a timer on player decision making. I don't usually fuss too much about that, the social aspects being part of the game, but during key time-bound scenes, it can really focus players to know that they have 30 seconds (or whatever) per turn to choose an action and make it so. This, of course, may not work with all groups or at all tables, but I've found that used judiciously, it can really amp up the sense of doom.

As a player and GM, I like these kinds of situations. They're tricky, but when everything goes well, they're definitely memorable and keep the players immersed in the game.


Maybe focusing on the environment could help here. Things like rough terrain which can slow them down and depending on where things are at, bottlenecking them into tighter quarters could do the trick too. Bunch them up, make them have to not only fight the enemy, but do so by having to account for their own party potentially being in the way. Perhaps they enter the area and it's covered in thick smoke from the fire, and they have to traverse through it, finding their way partly blind and potentially running into obstacles and enemies.

Could use more fire even. Say have the baddies toss down some alchemist flame or molotov coctails in strategic locations in between them and the party.

Maybe there's a low level sorcerer with the baddies that has grease, Web and other hindering battlefield manipulation spells.

Dark Archive

Use lots of lowbie enemies when you want to stall the party.
Use guys with enough HP to survive 2 or 3 non-crits. AC hardly matters, especially with a gunslinger.
For added fun, make the hellknight a caster that uses battlefield control spells to slow the party down.
Entangle is a good one. Web. Glitterdust. Grease. To low a level for walls...
Create pit.


Couple questions -

1) How long is this encounter supposed to last in real time?
Most combat encounters only last 2 - 4 rounds. Your talking about delaying them for at least 6 rounds.

2) Where is this taking place at - City, Farmstead, Cave system, etc?

Comment - Hellknights are usually members of the law or have some type of law backing them. What is going on is probably legal, at least by the law the Hellknight is following. Factor that in and it can put a twist to the encounter. Possible things to add that can mess up the party -
* Conscript guards. These are people that got drafted into helping the hellknight. They're more scared of him and what he represents then what they're doing. Party may not want to kill these conscripts.
* Reinforcements. If this takes place in a city and the Hellknight is a member of the law, he can raise a alarm and reinforcements can be on the way.

Possible ways to run the encounter -
Fight, plan on it taking 2-4 rounds.
Modified Chase scene. If you're not sure how those work, you have a number of different tasks the party needs to accomplish with assigned DCs before they can move on. Some examples for what you've described -

Buildings on fire. All the doors and windows are barred/boarded shut and you need to break in. Strength Check to pull the boards off DC 15 / Disable Device to pop them off DC 18

Mad dash through the burning rooms. Acrobatics to avoid the flames DC 18 / Fort save to ignore the flames DC 15

Ceiling has caved in leaving a pile of burning debris in the way. Bullrush your way through those debris with a CMB DC 18 / DC 15 Cimb over the debris.

Free the Prisoners DC ??

Then get the prisoners out DC ??

Don't be afraid to allow the players to use their own abilities in new and novel ways. As long as they make sense for the situation.

Raise (or lower) the DCs for the number of rounds it takes to free and get the prisoners out. After so many rounds start having the prisoners making Fort saves vs smoke. With the DC raising each round. 1st failed save: Prisoners starts coughing and hacking. 2nd failed: Unconscious. 3rd fail - dead


I think the most important thing to remember is if the PC's wind up blowing all expectations (a fairly common thing to happen) and kill the Hellknight and his minions in 2 or 3 rounds and get into the burning building, and cut all prisoners' restraints on the 4th or 5th, let them free ALL the prisoners. I know it's really disappointing to have a specific outcome or effect planned in your head, only for the PC's to ruin it all. Don't move mountains to stop them from getting an A+.


Just try not to overthink it. GMs should be flexible as PCs will often do exactly what you don't want them to do and ruin the entire plot. Put some stuff in their way, then figure out what happens based on how long it took them to get through.


Oh, I'll definitely let them free all the prisoners if they can manage it. Good for them if they can!

I was planning something along the lines of 3 rounds before NPCs start dying, then they burn to death at a rated of 1d3 per round on each round after that (simpler than rolling burn damage or saves for a dozen NPCs each round). There's a dozen NPCs, so that's an average of 9 rounds before they all die. The NPCs have info the players want, and as long as at least 1 of them survives, the PCs will be able to get it from them. (If none do, they'll just have to find some new way to learn what they want.)

I've never seen chases handled like that before, but I like it (in general, and maybe for this situation). Is that a subsystem from somewhere, or homebrewed?


There's a subsystem for chase scenes. I believe it's in the game masters guide. What I posted is a simplified version of it and is kind of how it's handled in PFS.

Chase scenes can be fun and really show off skill based characters. They do have one real problem, they seriously can penalize low skill base or certain build types of characters.
Aid others can really come in hand on these checks but doing slow can slow the party down


If you want a out line of the official chase rules, you can do a Web search using -
Chase scene pathfinder

Should show you some Web pages talking about it

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Balancing an encounter to stall them, but not beat them. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice