Hello there,
Recently I've been making a character for a PFS con.
Settled my mind on a skald, now I've got my eyes on two builds, I've got a hard time to choose between them.
First would be the usual route I've seen on the forums, dipping one level of bloodrager for Amplified rage. Your usual stuff.
Build #1 : Bloodrager 1 / Skald X
Race : Half Orc (sacred tatoo) (Reactionnary, Fate's Favored)
Stats : 15(+2)Str 12Dex 14Con 10Int 7Wis 16Cha
Feats : Amplified Rage(1) Skald's Vigor(3) Power Attack(5) (rest is free)
Rage powers : Spirit totem, lesser(4) Spirit totem(7), (not settled on the rest, maybe Guarded life at 10) and Spirit totem, greater (13).
Fighting style : lucern hammer, greatsword
Build #2 : Skald X
Race : Half Orc (toothy) (Reactionnary, Mindlessly cruel)
Stats : 16+2Str 12Dex 14Con 10Int 8Wis 14Cha
Feats : Arcane strike(1) Extra rage power(3) Power attack(5) Skald's vigor(7)
Rage powers : Fiend totem, lesser (3), Abyssal blood, lesser (extra power), Superstition(6), Witch hunter (9), Eater of magic (12).
Fighting style : Gore, 2*Claws, Bite
Why am I hesitating?
Build #1
Pros
- Build is a good balance between offense and defense
- Spirit totem tree makes other players want to accept rage
Cons
- Con boost is so high I risk dying, which you never want in PFS
- Slowed spell and powers progression because of the dip (that hits hard in PFS).
Build #2
Pros
- The offense is extremely strong. Getting 4 attacks at level 3 for a 3/4 BAB is amazing, especially for PFS
- The spell progression is not slowed by a dip. I get my 5th attack thanks to Allegro at level 4 (swapped for Haste at level 7)
- Early on I'll grant my allies a gore attack (albeit -5 if they manufactured use weapons), which is nice
Cons
- I feel like this build is a bit more squishy than the first : can't get natural armor amulet since furious amulet of mighty fist takes the slot | less saves at least until superstition | less hp
I'm open to tips to make build #1 less risky or build #2 less squishy of course, but idealy I would like some feedbacks from players that may have played the first or the second build.
Build #1,
Get rid of the dip.
Change stats 15+2, 14, 14, 10, 7, 15 boost Str at 4th and CHA at 8.
Feats Add Toughness, greater skalds vigor if go to 11
Well as this is for PFS and amplified rage is a teamwork feat that I foresee you having a very hard time getting use out of as the odds of one of the other random players at your table also having the feat, I feel you would be better off with build 2 and ignoring the bloodrager dip.
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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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I've been leaning towards the build #1...different rage powers was thinking superstitious, witchhunter and improved dr.
One thing to keep in mind is if the amplified rage counts towards skald's vigor...I've heard arguments both ways. That makes me nervous because you never know what a gm will lean toward and you might not have the same one everytime
Yuri...the bloodrager dip is probably for the valet familiar so he could reliably have it up
The vigor us based on what the song provides. Skald as a class leaves little leeway to interpret. After all even feats don't help boost rage song with extra rage power. Doubt it's flexible enough to get boosted by anything other than "song orovides". Err on caution because you'll get table varient.
Yuri Sarreth wrote: Well as this is for PFS and amplified rage is a teamwork feat that I foresee you having a very hard time getting use out of as the odds of one of the other random players at your table also having the feat, I feel you would be better off with build 2 and ignoring the bloodrager dip. @G-unit, Yuri : ekibus is right. The whole point of the build is to get a bloodline familiar, sacrifying the first bloodline power : http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar#TOC-Bloodline- Familiars . Then applying the Valet archetype to it. He automatically get all my TW Feats.
When I'll use the raging song I'll use my bloodrager bonus (+4str/+4con) and since my familiar will accept the rage, we will both qualify for the feat to work. So +8/+8 for me and +6/+6 for the familiar.
Then Skald Vigor will kick in giving me, supposedly, 6 fast regen. That's the whole point of the build.
To resume for those not knowing the build (pretty known since a year or two) :
- Build #1 : high STR + fast regen for both defense and offense
- Build #2 : having 4 (Fiend totem, lesser + Abyssal blood, lesser + toothy half orc alternate race trait) to 5 natural attack (haste) and giving allies a gore attack for free
Tbh I've been tempted to go for the #2 for the following reasons :
- Build #1 is +8 con when raging, if I ever drop unconscious, I'm toasted... -4*level hp will most of the time kill me (skald do not qualify for raging vitality). In PFS you don't want to die...
- Build #2 is less risky rage wise, but I'll have a tad less survivability : less hp while in rage, skald vigor only at level 7 (for 4 fast regen which is better than 2) and amulet slot taken by amulet of mighty fists (no natural armor amulet)
Getting a lot of attacks for a mid level character is killer for PFS, by level 3 I'll have 4 natural attack and level 4 I'll have : http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/allegro.html for 5 natural attacks.
Here's the routine for Build #2 at level 5, 20str (under allegro for haste, power attack):
- attack buff : heroism (+2 attack), allegro(haste, +1 attack), str +5, bab 3, power attack -1 => +10
- damage buff : mindlessly cruel (+1 damage), arcane strike (+2 damage), power attack +2, str +5 => +10
Haste : 2*gore +10(1d8+10) 2*claw +10(1d6+10) bite +10(1d4+10)
I've been thinking adding a combat trained tiger(500GP), giving him rage and a gore attack for 4 more attacks for : gore +11(2d6+7) 2 claws +11 (1d8+7 plus grab), bite +10 (2d6+7 plus grab).
At later levels, manufactured two handers may be a close call against 5 naturals attacks but by then I'll get a +2 from witch hunter on each attacks that may make the natural attacks pretty close to 3 attacks from, say, a lucern hammer (by the time the 3/4BAB get its second iterative, plus haste). Debate would be 5 natural attacks (full bab) boosted by diverse buffs (good hope, arcane strike, witch hunter) for every single attacks against 3 attacks of lucern (2*full bab and one albeit -5 penalty).
Now I could swap arcane strike for skald's vigor at level 1 but that would mean : no way to go through magical DR before the +1 amulet of mighty fists (that's important in PFS), and a flat +4/+5 damage off of the build until level 7 (and +8/+10 when it gives +2 at level 5).
I've been motivated by the fact that so many attacks in PFS is insanely strong.
In a home campain however I would tend for build#1 since dying isn't really an issue when you have access to raise unlike PFS.
I would consider the first build but skipping Amplified Rage so you don't have to deal with the rules ambiguity, and get a Goat and then a Mauler familiar (w/Boon Companion) or Earth Elemental/Mephit (w/Improved Familiar.) The familiar provides another buff target for Raging Song and is actually quite effective. You could easily mix in the second by just by taking Lesser Beast Totem for yourself with an Extra Rage feat, while keeping your shared rage power for something more likely to get used by the party.
Generally:
Pick up the Community Minded trait. It's a mini-Lingering Performance and a Mini-Raging Vitality.
For either build, I'd be looking at Unexpected Strike as your 9th level power. It's a lot of free hits.
Lesser Spirit Totem is fun and effective at low levels, but peters out when a bunch of ubuffable hits for d4+4 damage is just slowing the game down. Consider retraining it around Skald 6-8 for something that scales with Barbarian level (Strength Surge or Guarded Life.)
Sorry I was in a rush earlier and couldn't expound on my thoughts here is what the amplified rage feat says:
Amplified Rage wrote: Whenever you are raging and adjacent to a raging ally who also has this feat or flanking the same opponent as a raging ally with this feat, your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +4. This feat does not stack with itself (you only gain this bonus from one qualifying ally, regardless of how many are adjacent to you). now the valet familiar says:
Valet Familiar wrote: A valet is considered to have all the teamwork feats its master has. So amplified rage requires two conditions that need to be met in order to get the benefits:
1. flanking or adjacent
2. to an ally that is raging
The feat does not give the familiar the ability to rage only to benefit form the feat if he is already raging or has the ability to rage. If it did give the ability to rage I would be 100% behind the dip.
That is the issue with the build Padawanchichi some will say amplified stacks and others say it doesn't for skald's vigor... Honestly that has me reconsidering my build.... but a 6 fast healing at level 3 would offset the +8 con while raging imo. I don't want to get to a table though and find out my fast healing is only a 2 because that is how that gm rules it. I'm with you in believing you would get the +6 fast healing...but as this thread just showed...there is a issue in the ruling... so tread carefully
Markov Spiked Chain wrote: I would consider the first build but skipping Amplified Rage so you don't have to deal with the rules ambiguity, and get a Goat and then a Mauler familiar (w/Boon Companion) or Earth Elemental/Mephit (w/Improved Familiar.) The familiar provides another buff target for Raging Song and is actually quite effective. That's a lot of feats right there, Boon companion, Improved Companion without taking a human. Would you replace half orc by human to take power attack + boon companion at first level then?
I feel the familiar would be a lot less usefull after level 5-6 if I don't give him more natural attacks. In that level range I feel like a combat trained tiger would be a lot better.
Besides dipping, spell progression slowed by 1 plus rage powers slowed by 1 too, for a familiar that would be a lot less reliable after level 5-6 is worrying me.
On another note, lesser beast totem open up the path for beast totem giving a nice AC buff at level 6. For pounce sadly it would be a 12 level, so pretty late for PFS.
Last thing about improved familiar and archetypes, there's been discussions about it being problematic.
Quote: Bond Forged in Blood (Su)
...
This ability replaces speak with master and speak with animals of its kind.
Improved familiar seems to have conflict with familiar archetypes since a lot are not animals.
Markov Spiked Chain wrote: You could easily mix in the second by just by taking Lesser Beast Totem for yourself with an Extra Rage feat, while keeping your shared rage power for something more likely to get used by the party. That's what i tough when I've chosen lesser fiend totem, since extra rage doesn't get shared, I felt like an extra gore attack for two handers in the party would be efficient for a second attack.
Markov Spiked Chain wrote: Generally:
Pick up the Community Minded trait. It's a mini-Lingering Performance and a Mini-Raging Vitality.
Absolutely ! Since all my buffs are moral, that would help my buffs to be a lot better at low levels while also be kind of a mini raging vitality that would work on a skald.
Markov Spiked Chain wrote: For either build, I'd be looking at Unexpected Strike as your 9th level power. I've taken a look at unexpected rage but since skalds under level 13 are not really rage cycling wise I gave up. I doubt I'll get level 13 in pfs anyway.
Finally about lesser spirit totems I kinda agree, and there's a lot of undeads in PFS, especially at low level so I crossed it up on the #2.
I also tough of Savage Dirty Tricks for the #2 in place of the bite attack, but sadly the build is crowded with rage powers and 3 natural attacks would make the build a lot less appealing since its core reside in stacking abyssal blood and fiend totem.
I'll add up Community Minded in the #2 (first would be tricky because fate's favored is a must with sacred tatoo if half orc).
You take either Improved Familiar (after Skald 5) or Boon Companion (at 3rd or later) or just use a goat until you've got a spare feat. Like you said, Mauler doesn't mix with Improved Familiar. But a 16 Str Earth Elemental has 5' reach, tons of immunities, rages to 20 and Power Attacks.
Your Rage Powers should help the familiar keep scaling up after 5-6. It's using your BaB regardless of effective Wizard level, and your Rage Powers will jsut get better and better. I've been using Strength Surge+Savage Dirty Trick(+Unexpected Strike) so the familiar can Blind+Stagger+Attack every turn.
Rage Cycling as a move action at 7th (or probably 9th when you get Unexpected Strike.) Instead of a +6/+1 BaB Full Attack, you 5' step back and get two +6 BaB attacks as a full round. But you're getting at least 1-2 more attacks from your familiar and/or allies, and getting Strength Surge/Savage Dirty Trick every round too. I'm trying to decide right now if I want Flesh Wound at Skald 10, which would make Rage cycling even better.
I would consider Community Minded over Reactionary if you want to keep Fate's Favored (which is a nice buff.) If you really think initiative is vital, grab the Fated Champion Skald Archetype (and possibly keep Reactionary.)
Markov Spiked Chain wrote: You take either Improved Familiar (after Skald 5) or Boon Companion (at 3rd or later) or just use a goat until you've got a spare feat. Like you said, Mauler doesn't mix with Improved Familiar. But a 16 Str Earth Elemental has 5' reach, tons of immunities, rages to 20 and Power Attacks.
Your Rage Powers should help the familiar keep scaling up after 5-6. It's using your BaB regardless of effective Wizard level, and your Rage Powers will jsut get better and better. I've been using Strength Surge+Savage Dirty Trick(+Unexpected Strike) so the familiar can Blind+Stagger+Attack every turn.
Rage Cycling as a move action at 7th (or probably 9th when you get Unexpected Strike.) Instead of a +6/+1 BaB Full Attack, you 5' step back and get two +6 BaB attacks as a full round. But you're getting at least 1-2 more attacks from your familiar and/or allies, and getting Strength Surge/Savage Dirty Trick every round too. I'm trying to decide right now if I want Flesh Wound at Skald 10, which would make Rage cycling even better.
I would consider Community Minded over Reactionary if you want to keep Fate's Favored (which is a nice buff.) If you really think initiative is vital, grab the Fated Champion Skald Archetype (and possibly keep Reactionary.)
Oh I see ! You went for the rage cycling to be more effective past level 8. Are you actually playing that character?
I would see something like that, tell me if I'm wrong :
Build #1 (revised) : Bloodrager 1 / Fated Champion X
Race : Half Orc (Sacred tatoo+Shaman's Apprentice) (Community Minded, Fate's Favored)
Stats : 15(+2)Str 14Dex 14Con 10Int 8Wis 14Cha
Feats : Endurance(free, racial), Power Attack(1), Skald's Vigor(3) Die Hard(5), Improved Familiar(7), ...
Rage powers : Strength Surge(4), Savage dirty tricks(7), Unexpected Strike(10).
Fighting style : Two Handed Falchion (for more crits and 5ft AoOs)
Now about the familiar, obviously goat and then earth elemental as you said.
I would just like to take a closer look at the familiar HP.
Level 1 : my hit dice is full so 10hp, so familiar hp would be 5hp.
Level 1(rage) : character to 12hp familiar can't rage yet
Level 2 : I get 1 favored class bonus hp point, so 10+5+2+1=18hp so familiar would be 9hp
Level 2(rage) : character 22hp, familiar 11hp (2con[+1] from rage * HD)
Level 3 : character 26hp, familiar 13hp
Level 3(rage) : character 32hp, familiar 16hp
Level 4(rage) : character 42hp, familiar 21hp
level 5(rage) : character 52hp, familiar 26hp
My question is now, with hp this low did you managed to keep your familiar alive most of the time? 200GP per death isn't exactly cheap as your GP pool in PFS is limited (12*3 missions).
I see your build being really powerfull starting level 10 when you get unexpected strike and being able to rage cycle for a move action. That is a plus. Build is taking a huge bump at level 7 thanks to improved familiar+2nd iterative+dirty tricks, at level 8 (haste), level 9 (+4/+4 on song and fast healing 4).
Before 7, you have only one 2handers attack and a gore from goat (not magical weak to DR, unless mighty fist amulet).
I've been seing a player using metal attachment (cold iron) to the teeth of his companion, can't remember the item name (if legal, he's a 2 stars GM so I guess it is). Likewhise could use an armor on the goat for survivability (leather armor, leaf armor and then mithral kikko).
On another note, creature immune to Fortitude effects (or staggered/blind or both) like undead would impair this build a bit no?
But still I feel that this revised #1 build is a bit lackluster before level 7.
Yeah, I just hit 11 and am trying to decide between retraining the Bloodrager level for Eldritch Guardian 2/Skald 9, taking feats for the familiar to go Skald 11 or just taking BR1/Skald 10. I originally built for Amplified Rage and used Lesser Spirit Totem, even took three levels of Holy Tactician Paladin to give everyone Amplified Rage. I didn't have any rules issues with GMs, but really didn't want the potential hassle since the build works just fine without Amplified Rage. I took Extra Traits so I could get a bite attack (to threaten adjacent while using a reach weapon) instead of Diehard. Diehard has a really dumb interaction with non-lethal damage, and I was thinking about Guarded Life or Flesh Wound at some point, which would make it worthless.
Your familiar uses your total HP, and the way I read it, doesn't get half your rage HP, but does get it's own rage HP for the CON bonus. So you'd have:
Level 1 - You have 12 HP(10+2Con), your familiar has 6 (7 while raging).
Level 2 - You have 20 HP(10+5+4Con+1FCB), your familiar has 10 (12 while raging).
+8 (5+2Con+1FCB) per level for you so +4(5 raging) to your familiar.
I haven't had my familiar die yet, weirdly, even though I'm very aggressive with it. I think most GMs would rather attack a PC than a familiar, they still have full Con before dying, and Improved Evasion mostly protects them from accidentally getting Fireballed or W/E. Earth Elemental helps a lot, being immune to Crits, Flanking, Sneak Attack, poison, etc, with a very easy escape hatch (withdraw->Earth Glide.) Try to set your Perform skills up for Battle Song of the People's Revolt(Improved Spell Sharing) at 4th. This will let you split Mirror Image with your familiar for one casting (+2 round rage which drops to 1 round at 7th) and Mirror Image is a great survival/ deterrence tool.
I also took Celestial Bloodrager, so the goat had a small pool of healing that's useful for stabilizing people at lower levels. Doesn't help their survivability, but it did save a few people.
I retrained pretty significantly from the early levels, so it's hard for me to say how well it works before ~7th. Lesser Spirit Totem for every melee plus you and the goat is reasonable damage at those levels and was plenty of fun in the early game. A Furious Amulet of Might Fights is affordable and effective for the Goat.
I would rather not retrain that character as the setup is PFS.
Retrain cost is 5PP for each retrain and double usual GP cost.
I may settle with the #2 build as I got nice synergies and buff potential besides being an excellent damager.
Supersitious + Community Minded is glorious. May even swap mindlessly cruel for reactionnary to have even more init (along with fated champion archetype) so I'll be sure to buff up my partners at the start of the turn (if RNG god doesn't hammer my dice).
This way I would stay on the buffer side first to strike at the right time to turn the fight around.
Overall I find #2 more appealing for not dipping and keeping a full spell/rage progression without any retrain. I think the character is decent from 1 to 12.
Build #2 (revised): Skald X
Race : Half Orc (toothy) (Reactionnary, Community Minded)
Stats : 15+2Str 14Dex 14Con 10Int 8Wis 14Cha
Feats : Arcane strike(1) Extra rage power(3) Power attack(5) Skald's vigor(7) ???(9) Greater Skald's Vigor(11)
Rage powers : Fiend totem, lesser (3), Abyssal blood, lesser (extra power), Superstition(6), Witch hunter (9), Eater of magic (12).
Fighting style : Gore, 2*Claws, Bite (before level 3, cold iron lucern hammer+bite)
Level 9 feat is open. Possible candidate extra rage power for Savage dirty trick, Clear mind, Ghost rager (for touch AC bonus and situationnal weapon property), Guarded life, Linnorm Death Curse (Tor).
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