I've been building a vanara kineticist for an upcoming game and ran into an unexpected issue. That issue is the wording for save DC's under the Wild Talent class feature: "Unless otherwise noted, the DC for a saving throw against a wild talent is equal to 10 + the wild talent's effective spell level + the kineticist's Constitution modifier."
I've interpreted this to mean that, when a saving throw is called for, unless it says otherwise I'm to use this method to calculate the saving throw DC.
My GM holds that this passage means that unless the talent says otherwise, it has a saving throw attached to it. So, for example, a kinetic blast will require a saving throw, in addition to the attack roll.
I'll admit that the vehemence with which I claimed that to be INSANE may have been a bit much, but I feel my point is valid.
My points are the following:
1. The kinetic blast requires an attack roll. Unless it specifically says otherwise in the description (an event that, off the top of my head, only occurs with disintegrate), the standing rule is that a spell or spell-like ability that requires an attack roll doesn't provide a saving throw as well.
2. The kinetic blast description does not provide for a saving throw, does not list what that saving throw should be (Reflex, Fortitude, Will) and does not explain what happens on a successful or failed save, all signs that this may be because IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE.
3. Infusions, which do provide saving throws for certain effects, and those wild talents that also provide saving throws, specifically say that they do, what those saving throws should be, and explain what happens on a successful or failed save. This implies that the complete lack on kinetic blasts is intentional.
4. Last, but not certainly not least, the very wording of the above quote. It simply says what the DC of a saving throw would be; nowhere does it say that all wild talents have a saving throw. Even if you wanted to make an argument that they should, it must be admitted that the RAW DOESN'T require a saving throw.
Given that this argument has expanded to the point where the GM is proclaiming that ALL spells and spell-like abilities are supposed to have a saving throw unless it says that they don't, and given that in spite of my argument he has further stated he will continue to demand a saving throw (never mind which one) until I can PROVE otherwise, I'd like to posit the question to the community...
Though I do get the feeling that unless a member of the development team calls him up and says he's wrong, he STILL won't believe it.
Your GM is wrong. your blast isn't a wild talent.
Only substance infusions and use that save DC and form infusions are dex based.
You'd only apply the saving throw DC for blasts when the INFUSIONS specify a save. The kinetic blast (simple or composite) don't have a save themselves.
If the text of the ability itself doesn't convince your GM then you're just stuck with this dumb houserule of his. Sorry.
My thought exactly, but I'm going to make the effort regardless. How exactly I'm supposed to prove that something doesn't require a saving throw, beyond pointing out, in as many ways that I can, that it isn't asking for one, is beyond me.
Ask him to show where it says you do need to make one
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I've been building a vanara kineticist for an upcoming game and ran into an unexpected issue. That issue is the wording for save DC's under the Wild Talent class feature: "Unless otherwise noted, the DC for a saving throw against a wild talent is equal to 10 + the wild talent's effective spell level + the kineticist's Constitution modifier."
I've interpreted this to mean that, when a saving throw is called for, unless it says otherwise I'm to use this method to calculate the saving throw DC.
My GM holds that this passage means that unless the talent says otherwise, it has a saving throw attached to it. So, for example, a kinetic blast will require a saving throw, in addition to the attack roll.
I'll admit that the vehemence with which I claimed that to be INSANE may have been a bit much, but I feel my point is valid.
My points are the following:
1. The kinetic blast requires an attack roll. Unless it specifically says otherwise in the description (an event that, off the top of my head, only occurs with disintegrate), the standing rule is that a spell or spell-like ability that requires an attack roll doesn't provide a saving throw as well.
2. The kinetic blast description does not provide for a saving throw, does not list what that saving throw should be (Reflex, Fortitude, Will) and does not explain what happens on a successful or failed save, all signs that this may be because IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE.
3. Infusions, which do provide saving throws for certain effects, and those wild talents that also provide saving throws, specifically say that they do, what those saving throws should be, and explain what happens on a successful or failed save. This implies that the complete lack on kinetic blasts is intentional.
4. Last, but not certainly not least, the very wording of the above quote. It simply says what the DC of a saving throw would be; nowhere does it say that all wild talents have a saving throw. Even if you wanted to make an argument that they should, it must be admitted that the RAW...
Hi Vagrant Dog's GM. I'm Mark Seifter, and I designed the kineticist class. Kinetic blast doesn't require a save unless you use a version that specifies one, just like Vagrant Dog said. The save DC is for things like an AoE blast with Reflex half or a substance infusion that adds a status effect.
Thank you sir, I'll send this off to the GM and see what his response is.
Though I do get the feeling that unless a member of the development team calls him up and says he's wrong, he STILL won't believe it.
He probably still wouldn't believe it, kinda like how Francis still wouldn't believe Peter was a good father in Family Guy despite him going through the trouble of dragging the freakin' Pope to meet his father and tell him so in person.
Moral of the story, some people are so set in there ways no amount of reason will budge them. You can tell him I said that too, if you want. :P
EDIT:
Hi Vagrant Dog's GM. I'm Mark Seifter, and I designed the kineticist class. Kinetic blast doesn't require a save unless you use a version that specifies one, just like Vagrant Dog said. The save DC is for things like an AoE blast with Reflex half or a substance infusion that adds a status effect.
Holy Mother! It's the Holy Father!
*gets down on his knees and does whatever the Tabletop Nerd equivalent is of the Sign of the Cross ("Sign of the D20" maybe?)*
Hi Vagrant Dog's GM. I'm Mark Seifter, and I designed the kineticist class. Kinetic blast doesn't require a save unless you use a version that specifies one, just like Vagrant Dog said. The save DC is for things like an AoE blast with Reflex half or a substance infusion that adds a status effect.
Mark, I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for taking a moment to help the OP. I know that your job has its ups and downs, and contact with us forum denizens isn't always as fun as having your eyes stabbed out with a fire hydrant. So I just wanted to acknowledge your kindness and effort.
Hi Vagrant Dog's GM. I'm Mark Seifter, and I designed the kineticist class. Kinetic blast doesn't require a save unless you use a version that specifies one, just like Vagrant Dog said. The save DC is for things like an AoE blast with Reflex half or a substance infusion that adds a status effect.
"Hello, I am word of god."
Although, god diiiiid forget to mention those AoE blast saves are dexterity, not con based. :p Probably best to point that out given confusion.
Hi Vagrant Dog's GM. I'm Mark Seifter, and I designed the kineticist class. Kinetic blast doesn't require a save unless you use a version that specifies one, just like Vagrant Dog said. The save DC is for things like an AoE blast with Reflex half or a substance infusion that adds a status effect.Mark, I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for taking a moment to help the OP. I know that your job has its ups and downs, and contact with us forum denizens isn't always as fun as having your eyes stabbed out with a fire hydrant. So I just wanted to acknowledge your kindness and effort.
You're welcome! I like helping out when I can.
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Hi Vagrant Dog's GM. I'm Mark Seifter, and I designed the kineticist class. Kinetic blast doesn't require a save unless you use a version that specifies one, just like Vagrant Dog said. The save DC is for things like an AoE blast with Reflex half or a substance infusion that adds a status effect."Hello, I am word of god."
Although, god diiiiid forget to mention those AoE blast saves are dexterity, not con based. :p Probably best to point that out given confusion.
I actually considered mentioning that but left it out on purpose because I wanted the message to be simple with regard to the basic blast.
I actually considered mentioning that but left it out on purpose because I wanted the message to be simple with regard to the basic blast.Hi Vagrant Dog's GM. I'm Mark Seifter, and I designed the kineticist class. Kinetic blast doesn't require a save unless you use a version that specifies one, just like Vagrant Dog said. The save DC is for things like an AoE blast with Reflex half or a substance infusion that adds a status effect."Hello, I am word of god."
Although, god diiiiid forget to mention those AoE blast saves are dexterity, not con based. :p Probably best to point that out given confusion.
Fair enough. I kneel before Zod.
You're welcome! I like helping out when I can.Hi Vagrant Dog's GM. I'm Mark Seifter, and I designed the kineticist class. Kinetic blast doesn't require a save unless you use a version that specifies one, just like Vagrant Dog said. The save DC is for things like an AoE blast with Reflex half or a substance infusion that adds a status effect.Mark, I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for taking a moment to help the OP. I know that your job has its ups and downs, and contact with us forum denizens isn't always as fun as having your eyes stabbed out with a fire hydrant. So I just wanted to acknowledge your kindness and effort.
This is like the second thread today that I've seen you just show up in to be helpful and it's a large part of why you're my #1 favorite designer. Thanks!
An update, for those curious about the outcome; the GM reluctantly agreed that if the designer says that I read his description properly, then it's true.
He then added that he still thinks it's overpowered and he may feel like "tweaking" the power level later. If I put up a new thread in a couple weeks asking for help demonstrating that such is also nonsense, you'll know why.
In the meantime, thank you again, Sir Mark. I bow humbly to your compassion in this regard.
why not abandon the fight now. Your GM will just give you more and more problems if you continue this route.
Thinking kineticists are overpowered is a common knee-jerk reaction by GMs and sometimes other players. What's funny is that often times those same folks are controlling NPCs/PCs that do way more damage with full attack actions. They always forget kineticist's whole round action economy (gather power + blast) is like 75-80% equivalent of a fully built martial character (ranged or melee). It's all that happening with "1 standard action blast" while ignoring all the other resources that goes into making it manageable that gets them rankled up.
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Your GM is wrong. your blast isn't a wild talent.
Only substance infusions and use that save DC and form infusions are dex based.
Pretty sure that blasts are also wild talents.
Wild talent is a BROAD category which includes most of the kineticists class abilities
You have...
- simple blast wild talents
- composite blast wild talents
- defense wild talents
- form infusion wild talents
- substance form infusion wild talents
- utility wild talents
why not abandon the fight now. Your GM will just give you more and more problems if you continue this route.
An update, for those curious about the outcome; the GM reluctantly agreed that if the designer says that I read his description properly, then it's true.
He then added that he still thinks it's overpowered and he may feel like "tweaking" the power level later. If I put up a new thread in a couple weeks asking for help demonstrating that such is also nonsense, you'll know why.
In the meantime, thank you again, Sir Mark. I bow humbly to your compassion in this regard.
The problem is that section should be titled "Utility Wild Talent" because that is what class feature that section is addressing. Infusions have their own section where they address their DCs. Kinetic blast says its like a weapon and has an attack roll. The only time your attack would have a DC associated to it is when the infusions says as such, and those usually don't have attack rolls then like Wall or Spray.