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Does catch-off guard eliminate the non-proficiency penalty when using a weapon you are not trained in?
Catch Off-Guard (Combat)
Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
Now it says a "-4 penalty" is normally on attack rolls, but what isn't mentioned is that the penalty is a "non-proficiency" penalty.
Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Now, granted, the weapon used with Catch-off guard would adhere to the improvised weapon rules above. So damage is normal for a weapon of it's type, it only crits on a natural 20 and only does double damage on a critical.
Do I have this right?
The -4 penalty is the non-proficiency penalty. If it wasn't then the feat would do nothing as it would remove a penalty that doesn't exist.
However, it is important that it doesn't actually give you "proficiency" in improvised weapons. I think this comes up for some rogue builds, though I forget what combination they're trying to exploit.
It's also important to know that Catch-off Guard wont work with actual weapons. It works with improvised weapons. If something is actually a weapon, it is not an improvised weapon. And catch-off guard will not remove the penalty for not knowing how to use it properly.
An improvised weapon is something that's not crafted to be a weapon. A sword that you're not proficient with IS crafted to be a weapon, you just don't know how to use it effectively, so I wouldn't expect Catch Off-Guard to apply to it.
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An improvised weapon is something that's not crafted to be a weapon. A sword that you're not proficient with IS crafted to be a weapon, you just don't know how to use it effectively, so I wouldn't expect Catch Off-Guard to apply to it.
There is a FAQ that explicitly allows you to use a weapon as an improvised weapon.
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Okay, so your saying that the catch off guard illogically allows me to use a chair as a club, but not use a club as a club?
Sounds fishy at best.
Poor example. Every PC class is proficient with a club except a monk of the empty hand, and they have specific rules for this kind of thing.
A better example would be it would not allow you to wield a battleaxe as a battleaxe, but you could hold it by the head end and use it as an improvised club.
Okay, so your saying that the catch off guard illogically allows me to use a chair as a club, but not use a club as a club?
Sounds fishy at best.
No, I'm saying Catch-off Guard would allow you to use a chair as a club, and the back end of a spear as a club, but it wont allow you to use a Nodachi as a Nodachi. But you can use it as a simple two-handed weapon.
The important part of which is no, it doesn't use the same damage die.
Otherwise, you end up with "What's the point in taking martial or exotic weapon proficiency?" Because catch off-guard would remove the penalties for using it.
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Okay, so your saying that the catch off guard illogically allows me to use a chair as a club, but not use a club as a club?
Sounds fishy at best.
Poor example. Every PC class is proficient with a club except a monk of the empty hand, and they have specific rules for this kind of thing.
A better example would be it would not allow you to wield a battleaxe as a battleaxe, but you could hold it by the head end and use it as an improvised club.
A shikigami (Outsider, Native, Kami) has catch-off guard and no proficiency with simple weapons. It's an improved familiar option from B3.
No, I'm saying Catch-off Guard would allow you to use a chair as a club, and the back end of a spear as a club, but it wont allow you to use a Nodachi as a Nodachi. But you can use it as a simple two-handed weapon.The important part of which is no, it doesn't use the same damage die.
Otherwise, you end up with "What's the point in taking martial or exotic weapon proficiency?" Because catch off-guard would remove the penalties for using it.
Not looking to use the Nodachi as a Nodachi, as I mentioned, because that would be a crit range of 18-20 and has the brace property.
No, I'd use the Nodachi as an improvised two-handed heavy blade, which would do damage as a Nodachi, crit on only natural 20, and do double damage on a crit. I would not gain the brace property, because as I understand it, using the special properties of weapons requires proficiency. I'd also not be able to use any of magic properties of a weapon I'm using improvised. And if my class grants bonuses with a nodachi, I would not get them, because I'm not wielding a Nodachi, just an improvised heavy blade.
As for why take the martial/exotic feats, up to the player. Most classes benefit from actual proficiency, plus it's a requirement for many of the related feats, like weapon focus.
Personally, I think the martial and exotic feats are underpowered, and should function like the simple and firearm proficiency feats, granting access to all the weapons in their category, rather than just 1 weapon each. But that's a side argument.
There is a FAQ that explicitly allows you to use a weapon as an improvised weapon.
The FAQ addresses using part of a weapon that's not designed to do damage as an improvised weapon. So Catch Off-Guard would apply to the blunt end of a spear (as described in the FAQ), or maybe the pommel of a sword, but not to the tip of the spear or the blade of a sword.
Not looking to use the Nodachi as a Nodachi, as I mentioned, because that would be a crit range of 18-20 and has the brace property.
No, I'd use the Nodachi as an improvised two-handed heavy blade, which would do damage as a Nodachi, crit on only natural 20, and do double damage on a crit. I would not gain the brace property, because as I understand it, using the special properties of weapons requires proficiency. I'd also not be able to use any of magic properties of a weapon I'm using improvised. And if my class grants bonuses with a nodachi, I would not get them, because I'm not wielding a Nodachi, just an improvised heavy blade.
As for why take the martial/exotic feats, up to the player. Most classes benefit from actual proficiency, plus it's a requirement for many of the related feats, like weapon focus.
Personally, I think the martial and exotic feats are underpowered, and should function like the simple and firearm proficiency feats, granting access to all the weapons in their category, rather than just 1 weapon each. But that's a side argument.
The part that you're still incorrect about is that if you're using a Nodachi improvised you're not using the blade and it doesn't deal Nodachi damage. It would deal some other kind of damage, which isn't easily determined since there are no guideline.
If you're trying to use the blade of a nodachi, you're trying to use it as the normal weapon, which would incur the -4 penalty.
You're trying to do some weird psuedo-combination where you're after the damage dice, but willing to sacrifice the other things. But that doesn't work. If you were getting Nodachi damage, you'd be using it as a nodachi and take the penalty for not being proficient.
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The part that you're still incorrect about is that if you're using a Nodachi improvised you're not using the blade and it doesn't deal Nodachi damage. It would deal some other kind of damage, which isn't easily determined since there are no guideline.
If you're trying to use the blade of a nodachi, you're trying to use it as the normal weapon, which would incur the -4 penalty.
You're trying to do some weird psuedo-combination where you're after the damage dice, but willing to sacrifice the other things. But that doesn't work. If you were getting Nodachi damage, you'd be using it as a nodachi and take the penalty for not being proficient.
There is a guideline. It says to "determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match."
The closest weapon to a Nodachi would be a Nodachi of the same size.
And on a side note, in terms of damage, the Nodachi is identical to a halberd and a few other weapons. Any of these could represent the weapon I'm improvising. And the Nodachi was someone else's example, not mine.
As for the non-proficiency, Improvised weapons always consider the wielder non-proficient. Catch off guard doesn't grant proficiency to improvised weapons, it just removes the penalty regarding melee improvised weapons.
because there is no way that a single feat should make you better than an entire class devoted to this.
What about two traits?
I think the proficiency system is silly as-written so I'm more the willing to let people at my tables bypass it entirely.
There is a guideline. It says to "determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match."
The closest weapon to a Nodachi would be a Nodachi of the same size.
Incorrect, because if you're using a Nodachi improvised you are not using the blade, so you wouldn't do nodachi damage. You're using the pommel to do a pommel strike, or something like that. Which is probably a club. If you're using the blade, you're not using it as an improvised weapon. You're using it as a regular weapon, and if you are not proficient with it you will take the penalty.
I don't understand why you think you can do what you're trying to say you can. Sure you can use an improvised and with catch off guard you don't take the -4 penalty for not being proficient. It only threatens on a 20 and deals double damage. So far we agree on everything. What we don't agree about is how much damage you do, because you are trying to trick your way into doing regular weapon by saying you're using the weapon improvised when you're using the blade (or other normal weapon part) of the weapon. But that's not using it improvised. You're using the weapon normally and trying to get around not being proficient, and trying to use Catch Off-guard to give you pseudo proficiency in all weapons. It just doesn't work that way.
As for the non-proficiency, Improvised weapons always consider the wielder non-proficient. Catch off guard doesn't grant proficiency to improvised weapons, it just removes the penalty regarding melee improvised weapons.
I know, I said that earlier in the thread.
I'm sorry that you don't like the way weapon proficiency works in this game. Feel free to change it, I don't play with you so I'll certainly never notice.