JJ is a creative director, not a game designer.
The Klar is a light spiked shield that does 1d6 slashing damage instead of 1d4 piercing damage and is martial rather than light.
That is all the shield says it does in its entry. So that's... all it is. Nothing more or less. You can invent all of these extra effects for your weapons of course for home games, but houserules are really beyond the scope of the rules forum.
All of this noise about 'double weapons that aren't double weapons' is just that, noise, because that's not in line with the mechanics of the weapons (and probably doesn't hold up in scrutiny even if we make all of these weird assumptions).
Bashing doesn't work with the Klar regardless because the weapon says it counts as a spiked shield and per the FAQ you can't stack spiked and bashing. So that's a moot point anyways.
I already said he wasn't a rules guy, as evidenced by his claim that shield spikes are their own weapons. But he's still the one who designed and created the Klar. At this point, he is akin to Jason Nelson with the Bodyguard feat, in that although he isn't RAW, he is certainly RAI.
So how is it a Light Spiked Shield when it has none of the precedents of what makes a Light Spiked Shield, well, a Light Spiked Shield? Light Spiked Shields are Piercing. Every other source that involves Spikes are Piercing (such as pits and other traps). Klars are Slashing. Light Spiked Shields are 1D4. Klars are 1D6, which is the damage of a Heavy Spiked Shield, not a light one. Apples to Oranges here, so all of this talk about it being a Light Spiked Shield not only makes no sense (which is what Scott Wilhelm is usually getting at), but also isn't reflected in any way in the item's statistics.
I don't have to "invent" anything, when the other rules sets allow me to apply these benefits. Throwing Shields are a template to apply to any shield, except Tower Shields. So I can have Throwing Bucklers if I wanted, even though that's probably not intended;...
RAI sure, but RAI sohei can't flurry in armor and yet that is legal.
Also, there is no way to get 3d6. 2d6 is the maximum with bashing.
What a crazy strawman!
Its not a fallacy when you have a shirt full of stuffing
Nobody is trying to stack spikes with bashing. We believe that the shield does 1d6 damage on a shield bash, so bashing makes that 2d6.
Yes, you most certainly are trying to stack a spike with bashing.
A klar does more damage than a normal shield because it already has a spike on it, a different spike that does slashing damage instead. Saying "its not a shield spike its a klar" is a distinction without a difference.
A shield spike is a virtual size increase.
Bashing is a virtual size increase.
Virtual size increases do not stack.
What a crazy strawman!
Its not a fallacy when you have a shirt full of stuffing
Nobody is trying to stack spikes with bashing. We believe that the shield does 1d6 damage on a shield bash, so bashing makes that 2d6.Yes, you most certainly are trying to stack a spike with bashing.
A klar does more damage than a normal shield because it already has a spike on it, a different spike that does slashing damage instead. Saying "its not a shield spike its a klar" is a distinction without a difference.
A shield spike is a virtual size increase.
Bashing is a virtual size increase.
Virtual size increases do not stack.
You obviously have no clue what our argument even is. This is frustrsting to even continue this conversation because you haven't tried to understand what anyone else is saying.
How is the 1d6 attack with a klar an attack with a spiked shield? It's slashing damage. That's without any effective size increase from shield spikes.
What you are saying is 100% a strawman, and condescending towards the entire group of people who hold this opinion does not change that.
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You obviously have no clue what our argument even is. This is frustrsting to even continue this conversation because you haven't tried to understand what anyone else is saying.
I obviously DO understand what you're saying because you keep reiterating exactly what i said in your objections. It is entirely possible to understand your argument and disagree with it. This shrill rhetoric not so subtly decrying peoples honesty and intelligence isn't earning you any points.
How is the 1d6 attack with a klar an attack with a spiked shield? It's slashing damage. That's without any effective size
increase from shield spikes.
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.
Now,there 3 options there.
1) Thats not an error , it really means armor spikes, in which case you cannot put bashing on armor spikes, because armor spikes are a completely different weapon than the armor they're attached to.
2) Its a misprint, and it means "shield spike" In which case you cannot stack bashing and the shield spike.
3) Putting bashing on just the shield gets you a base of 1d3, which moves up to 1d6 with 2 size increases.
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ARGH GRAGOGHH.
Hates Klar threads.
Hates hates hates.
KOWTOW MORE, YOU!
Have the original source, not the mistyped revisions. If you want to refer to those revisions, and where they are in the books, I Promptly get on my English nitpick podium and DENY YOU, because you can't put armor spikes on a shield, and so your Klar is IMPOSSIBLE.
There. (&*(). HATES.
And Del Taco, you are absolutely wrong. People are arguing that Spiked Shields and Bashing are meant to stack by a variety of means. I personally let them stack. For shields.
IF you call the Klar's base d6 slashing dmg a shield bash, THEN you can say that spiking the shield increases it to d8, because that's what spikes do! THEN you can say that Bashing increases it by two sizes, from d8 to 2d6 to 3d6. Why? Because the base dmg is d6 instead of the d4 of a large shield. YAY.
The fact you are absolutely ignoring the fact that a light spiked dmg is d4 20/x2 is quickly shoved under the table and covered with the tablecloth of "Oh, Klars do base d6 19-20/x2 damage! Points points points! Table over text, table over text!" when the exact opposite of that is true.
Also, a light shield is treated as a light weapon when used to bash, so you can finesse it. YAY, not a one handed weapon. Text over table, text over table, points points!
and Darksol was bringing up the fact that since it's a weapon and a shield, that's two weapons, so you can treat it as a double weapon, and get TWF with one Klar with some more convoluted justifications and things that have come out since it was made.
And sure, you can use blinkback belts or feats or throwing to have Klars become throwing weapons and zip back to your hand. And they give dex to dmg with throwing weapons now, too! And because it doesn't say they don't, obviously that dex to throwing weapons applies when used in melee, too! Because if the rules don't say I can't do it, then obviously I can! Points somewhere, points somewhere!
()*&()*&*()&. HATES.
And to top it off, people are DISSING THE GUY WHO DESIGNED THE KLAR. Because what he meant to happen, due to poor English and attempting to exploit that, has metamorphasized into this gawdawful special snowflake that gets to take advantage of every applicable loophole and ignore all the other rules contradicting the way people want to see it, because 'the Klar is different!'
Aargh.
JJ wrote the only version of the Klar that is not outright impossible, the original one. And now people fall all over themselves to defend these impossible new rewrites that are in conflict with the english language, the rules, and the designer's intent, and think that Klars are just that special.
Or they know it, go "HEE HEE HEE! A loophole exploit they messed up on with crappy language! EXPLOIT EXPLOIT!" and try to defend that because it works according to their personalized re-interpretation of the rules, you have no right to argue with them, and KLARS ARE DE UBER.
It's against the spirit and intent of the game, and is just frustrating to no end.
It's the textbook special snowflake, perfect and untouchable despite all the rules to the contrary.
It makes me want to bang my head on the table. THe fact Paizo has repeatedly managed to mess up the Klar in reprints is putting more dents in my forehead.
--------------------
So, I'm just going to lay this out here.
Conservative Rules interpretation:
The Klar was designed as a kind of odd weapon, a sword with a buckler attached to it with some spikes around it (lizard skulls with horns, yada, yada). So, shortsword damage with +1 shield ac, all in one tool. Not bad, like getting a buckler for free.
It does damage exactly as a short sword, and had the special ability that if you want to shield bash, and so use shield feats, you could do so, resulting in it acting like a light, spiked shield, doing d4 20/x2, strictly inferior, but, hey, an option.
If you wanted to enhance the shield portion of it, that's fine, but they didn't apply to the weapon part of the Klar, because weapons can't have shield enhancements.
If you wanted to enhance it as a weapon, you could, and it would affect all attacks, because the shield portion of it is still a weapon.
Bang. That's it. Full stop. Goes no further.
That's the conservative interpretation of the rules.
IT satisfies all rules.
It satisfies all tables.
It meets the original language.
It meets the original designer intent.
It stops the Klar from being an obviously overpowered weapon.
It is not controversial in rules interpretation, Application of English, or interaction with other rules.
Deviating from this interpretation is the root cause of all Klar threads.
-----------------------------
Hates Klar threads. Hates hates hates.
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@Del_Taco_Eater: Sure, they don't seem to have a problem, but they have the same issues as any other form of Throwing Shield, as I've elaborated on in this thread here. (Also, shameless advertising to go in there and hit the FAQ button on the OP if you haven't already, I and about 44 other people would appreciate it.)
Interesting note with the Manyshot feat. Thanks for that, although that does open up the Snap Shot feat chain, which is interesting.
As I've said before, in an optimization point of view, it's not bad. I don't personally find a problem with this, but objectively speaking, and from a non-optimizer's point of view, 2D6 or 3D6 damage with a shield is stupid-OP, and probably outside the intended power level of what a shield is supposed to emit.
I do bring up the whole "TWF with itself" issue because there have been claims in the past that the Klar's weapon entry applies to both shield bashing with it and using it as its own weapon. I'm merely covering my bases with that statement, but there have been tables who have run it that way, so...
People will argue that Spiked Shields are not, in fact, an effective size bonus increase, and therefore would stack with Bashing. I'm not saying they're right, or that I'm right, all I'm pointing out is that there is quite a bit of table variation/houseruling going on there, so saying that they don't stack will simply not sync with people. All I'm doing is providing a worst case scenario, which at some tables, can happen.
Also, the price would be 12K for enhancements. +1 Bashing is 4,000 gold, +1 Agile is 8,000 gold, Throwing Shield template makes it +50 gold, plus it's a Masterwork Klar, so the total would be 12,212 gold, and two feats (one for EWP, which the penalties apply to all attacks with it per RAW, and one for Weapon Finesse). But consider what you get for this:
You are both a melee and ranged threat. Your attacks, regardless of what you do, are minimum 2D6 (3D6 for melee) damage, which is equal to or superior to a Greatsword. Sure, you had to spend an EWP and Weapon Finesse, and about 12K gold, but you can TWF with it effectively (since you'll be doing full Dexterity damage, and use Dexterity for your to-hit), and these same benefits can apply to Throwing it, since you would be able to apply your Dexterity to Attack and Damage rolls that way as well. Given Paizo's track record with nerfing Dex-to-Damage options, it's hardly the intent to make a Finessable Throwing Shield a sort of "Ultimate Weapon."
I kid you not, the only reasons going this route would be stupid would be because it's too feat intensive (Bonus Feat classes, especially Rangers, trivialize this issue), or because its critical multiplier sucks eggs (which there's no means to fix that).
Now, can you do all of that with a Greatsword? Possibly. But it's nowhere near as optimal, since you can't reasonably Finesse it, and can't come online as fast. I mean, there is a potential way to do so with Strength, but its power is limited to the Mid-game, because there are no late-game options to maximize that output; in the Klar's case, there are multiple end-game options that can make them absolutely devastating to deal with.
In addition, the Klar is a significantly better option defensively, since you can get as high as +7 AC from the Klar, with the proper optimization of course, which is a pretty nice boon. Did I also mention that with the Shield Master feat, you can have a +5 Bashing/+5 Agile Guardian Defending Klar, you can maintain your +5 Enhancement Bonus to your attacks, and get an additional +5 to your AC or Saving Throws when you attack?
Try doing that with a Greatsword; oh wait, you can't. Although that's really only an endgame trick, stacking an extra +5 AC (which is like an extra set of Chainmail), or +5 Saves (an extra Cloak of Resistance), and still getting your +5 Enhancement Bonus to your attacks, is stupidly overpowered, no matter which part of the game you're at.
As for the whole "TWF with itself," that's followed by the claim that the Klar's entry applies to it being both its own unique weapon and a shield you can bash with, as per Scott Wilhelm's interpretation. I'd suggest you ask him for more details, as he could probably explain it better than me (especially since I disagree with that interpretation).
@ Das Bier: If you hate Klar threads so much, why do you participate in them? I'd prefer that you think of them as a guilty pleasure than something you absolutely despise, otherwise, well, then I'd be concerned for the safety of the participants in the Klar threads.
Although clearly an act, for how much you go on about hating it, the feelings are, in my opinion, starting to become genuine, in which case I'll give you the same advice that others have given to people who are at unfavorable tables, so as to preserve your sanity: No gaming is better than bad gaming.
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Is there any single other product that exists in your economy that you wouldn't it to do what it says on the label?
No item in the economy would put up with the blatant attempts at specious reading that goes into RPG rules.
Shampoo. For external use only. I drank it outside. Lawsuit please.
Do not stick in ears. I only put it in one. Lawsuit please.
Sangria. Mix with alcohol. I mixed it with rubbing alcohol and it tastes terrible and made me sick. Lawsuit!
Do not operate heavy machinery under these drugs. My gun only weighs 8 pounds, that's pretty light. LAWSUIT!
Apply to ears. I stuck this entire glass bottle of ear drops in my ears and it ruptured my eardrum. LAWSUIT!
Paizo needs to make its FAQ section searchable. Right now it is browsable but not searchable. There needs to be advanced search engine features that filter for Official Rules Posts, and there is nonesuch. Right now, searching FAQs and threads for the answers to rules-based questions is like dredging for treasure on the bottom of the ocean.
Also, there is a need for nimble responses to rules questions. Players and GMs need to be able to get official rules-based responses and rulings within a few days:
I hate agreeing with him but I am anyway...
So how is it a Light Spiked Shield when it has none of the precedents of what makes a Light Spiked Shield, well, a Light Spiked Shield? Light Spiked Shields are Piercing. Every other source that involves Spikes are Piercing (such as pits and other traps). Klars are Slashing. Light Spiked Shields are 1D4. Klars are 1D6, which is the damage of a Heavy Spiked Shield, not a light one. Apples to Oranges here, so all of this talk about it being a Light Spiked Shield not only makes no sense (which is what Scott Wilhelm is usually getting at), but also isn't reflected in any way in the item's statistics.I'm not sure why people are getting so confused by this.
Klars are not light spiked shields, but they do count as light shields.
They just happen to do different damage when you attack with them.
It's.. really straight forward. Like this is one of the least confusing weapons in the game.
The only thing that people are getting hung up on are the name. If it had some stupid name like 'Light shield, Bladed' no one would blink at these rules. But because it has a flavor name people can't help but freak out about it for some reason.
But insisting it can't be a shield because it does slashing damage is like insisting spiked shield can't be shields because they do piercing damage instead of bludgeoning.
Well, let's take a step back then, and evaluate this item objectively, as if seeing it for the first time, shall we?
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.
That's a crystal clear description right there. It says that a Klar is flavored to be a short blade bound to the skull of a lizard. Mechanically speaking, The description says that it counts as a Light Shield with Armor Spikes, whether it be natural or metal, and since it's not an inclusive list (that it, it doesn't say what it all counts for), it's safe to say that it counts as such for all intents and purposes, though at this point the description would suggest the Klar's weapon entry would be 1D6 Piercing, since there is no evidence, description or otherwise, that would imply the Klar's damage type would be Slashing outside of a printed error. After all, if it's supposed to be Armor Spikes, making it Slashing damage would make it, well, not Armor Spikes, correct? But if it's supposed to count as a shield with Armor Spikes, for ALL intents and purposes, well...damage type would be included in that sort of involvement.
At any rate, this means that you can bash with it as a Light Shield, dealing 1D3 points of Bludgeoning Damage, or you can attack with its Armor Spikes, dealing 1D6 point of Piercing damage. Both are Light Weapons. This also means that there are two kinds of weapons on the same item (and this is actually probably where the "TWF with itself" interpretation comes into play).
Now, if we apply Shield Spikes (as it's not a Spiked Shield, it's a Shield with Armor Spikes), it specifically states that the shield it's applied to bashes as if 1 size larger. So now the Shield becomes 1D4 Piercing, but the Armor Spikes still do the same kind of damage.
There is an argument by Scott Wilhelm that states all attacks made with Shields must be Shield Bashes. Ironically enough, if we took that interpretation, then that means the Armor Spikes on the Klar would be a Shield Bash, and therefore would be modified by the Shield Spikes being applied to make it 1D8; to be conservative, I'll presume it doesn't apply, but the interpretation is there.
If we made it Bashing, then you have 2D6 Armor Spike damage, and 1D6 Shield Bash damage, both piercing, both light weapons. Simple enough, right?
Let's make it a Throwing Shield on top of all of that, so you can throw it for 2D6 Bludgeoning damage as well, and the entire item becomes an Exotic Weapon (which means no proficiency = -4 penalty to all attacks made with it, regardless of the means of attack).
So, to review, we have a Light Shield that grants +1 AC, comes with Armor Spikes, can have Shield Spikes applied to it (which may or may not enhance the Armor Spike damage), can become Throwing (making it an Exotic weapon for all intents and purposes), always counts as a light weapon, and with a highly suggestive implication that the damage type on the table is printed incorrectly since it betrays all precedents regarding spikes, as well as the concept that the Klar counts as a light shield with Armor Spikes, for all intents and purposes.
Do I have that right?
Do I have that right?Other than all of the obvious incorrections you exaggerated in a poor attempt to undermine the weapon, yeah pretty much.
By all means, point these "incorrections" out. I don't like it when people sit there and say people are wrong without providing any sort of proof as to why that is.
All I did was take the literal description of the item, from both entries (which are exactly the same by the way), from the PRD. How is that "exaggerating in a poor attempt to undermine the weapon"?
Synopsis of all Klar Descriptions
Klar: The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon consisting
of a short blade bound to the skull of a horned reptile. An
attack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes.
See page 153 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Table: d6 /x2 weapon Slashing one handed martial Weapon
==Original Weapon Description.
Klar: The klar functions as a light wooden or light steel
shield when used to defend in combat.
Table: Basically a buckler weighing 1 more pound, and 12 gp vs 5.
==Original Shield Description // Inner Sea World Guide
----------------
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard but but a skill smith can craft one entirely out of metal.
Benefit: A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes. A metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.
Weapon Feature(s): special
Damage: d6 slashing 20/x2
==Revised in Ultimate Equipment description
-------------------------
This blade is bound to the skull of a horned giant gecko. Armorers have started crafting these bladed shields from steel. The klar, like the madu is both a weapon and a shield.
Benefit: If you are proficient with the klar, you may treat it as a spiked light wooden shield (or light steel shield, if made entirely of metal); otherwise it is just a light shield.
Dmg: d6 slashing 20/x2
===Adventurer's Armory description
=============================================
So, time to throw out the old. There's every reference I could find on the Klar.
Descriptions conflict with rules still. And the Armor spikes reference is STILL annoying.
Original description analysis:
While the description calls it a blade attached to a horned skull and makes it plain they are separate, it also makes plain that an attack with the Klar is an attack with shield spikes, ie. a shield bash. And that you can't add spikes to it. There's no if/may/want to language...an attack with the Klar is treated as if it were a bash with a spiked shield, and it deals d6 slashing dmg.
However, the 'shield' description now leads to irregularity, as it introduces the "when used to defend in combat", which should mean 'choose to defend or choose to attack', it counts as a shield.
I.e. one or the other, not both. Which is actually the default state for a bashing shield.
Ultimate Equip analysis:
'Counts as' language is not 'IS' language. It basically means it's a spiked shield + something else. Ugh.
Adv Armory Analysis:
'May treat as', meaning elective. This also fails to reconcile the basic damage of slashing, and basically just adds a new damage type.
Other points: Nowhere in the description is the termed 'bash' used, although that is the default term for a shield attack. (See, Improved Shield Bash, etc). It could logically be construed that an attack with a Klar is NOT a shield bash (since it doesn't follow the damage numbers for a shield bash) and so doesn't trigger feats or other effects that only work on a shield bash, like, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Mastery, Bashing enhancement, etc.
How wonderful is the English language.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Revised Conservative Ruling:
Bashing enhancement does nothing for a Klar.
A klar is a variant light spiked shield, which has a base d3 dmg. It already does d6 slashing as a variant spike rule. Bashing would merely bring the d3 up to the d6 level it is already at, since spikes and bashing don't stack.
A Klar is basically a bladed shield with Bashing already built into it, if you are proficient in it.
You can't treat it as a light weapon in the off hand. If you allow for the d6 dmg, the same table says it is a One hand Weapon, the same as a Heavy Shield, superceding its status as a light shield (which falls under Light Weapons).
It should have been described as a variant blade-spiked shield.
===================
If you want to allow Bashing and spikes to stack, your Klar would indeed end up at 2-12 dmg, the same as a heavy shield. This is clearly a House Rule, however. It's effectively the same as paying 4k to add non-magical Impact to your weapon.
I withdraw the argument that the 'attached blade' is a secondary weapon. I believe it was clearly intended to be, but the rules go around it.
A base attack with the Klar is indeed a d6 slashing attack. However, it operates under the same paradigm as other spiked shields, and so is a virtual size increase from the d3 base, and won't stack with bashing.
Mechanically, for comparison purposes, a Klar is a Spiked Heavy Shield, that does slashing dmg instead of piercing, grants +1 AC instead of +2, and does not benefit from Bashing as a tradeoff for the higher and variant damage.
Gah. Klar threads.
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Are you trying to pick another argument out of nothing?
Scott, I think it's a good time to stop posting. Not because you're wrong, but because it's become obvious that the people you're arguing with can't be convinced. Be happy because you know you are right and save yourself the stress.
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Since it cannot be demonstrated that a Klar has Shield Spikes
The description of the weapon says it's treated as a light spiked shield everywhere except UE where the mention of armor spikes is very clearly a typo.
And in turn a spiked shield is a shield with shield spikes.
So I have to disagree with that assessment.
Agreed. That has to be one of the worst leaps of dislogic I've seen here. Completely discounting the 'light spiked shield' language ENTIRELY. Like, wow.
But since it shuts down spiking a klar, and Bashing boosting damage further, I have to say, I'm not surprised. Eyes wide shut and all. "Table, ignore text! Table, ignore text!" point-point.
Klar threads. Yes, just finished some popcorn.
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Except that that is what the rules say.
Fine. The rules say that they are armor spikes. You cannot put bashing on armor spikes. Done.
This is a no. You are reading only the rules that would allow this combination and ignoring all of the MANY warning signs that it would not work in deliberate pursuit of mechanical advantage. When you do that you run the risk of the dm saying no and of labeling yourself a munchkin.
I'm still waiting for you to point out my "incorrections," swoosh. Surely, there can't be that many, or are you using the donkey tactic?
I can agree that there is a high chance that the klar is supposed to count as shield spiked, even if it doesn't say that. But that's still just assumption.
And it's still a little questionable if shield spikes stack with bashing because of the vague language of the rules and the FAQ. It'd be nice if some dev could chime in and confirm yay or nay on that too.
Does anyone have hero labs to see how they handle these questions?
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And it's still a little questionable if shield spikes stack with bashing because of the vague language of the rules and the FAQ
no.
There is no ambiguity there.
There is no argument there.
They do not stack.
It is not vague language. It is perfectly clear.
No.
"No". See, I can say "no" too. Also "nee". So, I guess I'm right and it is vague.
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I can agree that there is a high chance that the klar is supposed to count as shield spiked, even if it doesn't say that. But that's still just assumption.
And it's still a little questionable if shield spikes stack with bashing because of the vague language of the rules and the FAQ. It'd be nice if some dev could chime in and confirm yay or nay on that too.
Does anyone have hero labs to see how they handle these questions?
The fact that we have to rely on Herolab for an official answer because Paizo is too lazy/bothered to make a FAQ/Errata for a very controversial topic is the epitomy of ridicule against Paizo's Dev Staff.
I can agree that there is a high chance that the klar is supposed to count as shield spiked, even if it doesn't say that. But that's still just assumption.
And it's still a little questionable if shield spikes stack with bashing because of the vague language of the rules and the FAQ. It'd be nice if some dev could chime in and confirm yay or nay on that too.
Does anyone have hero labs to see how they handle these questions?
Klar: The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon consisting
of a short blade bound to the skull of a horned reptile. Anattack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes.
See page 153 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Table: d6 /x2 weapon Slashing one handed martial Weapon
==Original Weapon Description.
Klar: The klar functions as a light wooden or light steel
shield when used to defend in combat.
Table: Basically a buckler weighing 1 more pound, and 12 gp vs 5.
==Original Shield Description // Inner Sea World Guide
I'd say that chance is 100%, Mel.
And it's still a little questionable if shield spikes stack with bashing because of the vague language of the rules and the FAQno.
There is no ambiguity there.
There is no argument there.
They do not stack.
It is not vague language. It is perfectly clear.
No.
Nah, it's 99.99% clear. There's a slim dash of hope for the edge literalists, but I don't think anyone seriously believes it.
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"No". See, I can say "no" too. Also "nee". So, I guess I'm right and it is vague.
Stop trying to treat the numerically superior interpretation as the default value that requires absolute disproof in order to not be true, and then ignoring the absolute disproof.
The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language
Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see "spiked shields" on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
There is no honest way to read what is written there and even pretend that there's even a shred of ambiguity left.
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I can agree that there is a high chance that the klar is supposed to count as shield spiked, even if it doesn't say that. But that's still just assumption.
And it's still a little questionable if shield spikes stack with bashing because of the vague language of the rules and the FAQ. It'd be nice if some dev could chime in and confirm yay or nay on that too.
Does anyone have hero labs to see how they handle these questions?
Klar: The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon consisting
of a short blade bound to the skull of a horned reptile. An
attack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes.
See page 153 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Table: d6 /x2 weapon Slashing one handed martial Weapon
==Original Weapon Description.Klar: The klar functions as a light wooden or light steel
shield when used to defend in combat.
Table: Basically a buckler weighing 1 more pound, and 12 gp vs 5.==Original Shield Description // Inner Sea World Guide
I'd say that chance is 100%, Mel.
Too bad Shield Spikes aren't their own weapons. At best, they're improvised weapons, and even then, that's assuming they aren't affixed to a shield. If they are, well...
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I'm still waiting for you to point out my "incorrections," swoosh. Surely, there can't be that many, or are you using the donkey tactic?Pretending armor spikes is actually the correct mechanic rather than an editing mistake, stacking spikes on a weapon that's already spiked and then stacking spiked with bashing. Also this weird non-double weapon thing that's not really rules consistent and even if it was doesn't even exist in the first place.
Also your weird assertion that the weapon does piercing damage even though it says it does slashing damage.
Other than all of that you were spot on.
I'll go ahead and remind you that I looked at it as if I saw it for the first time, and gave my interpretation from an objective point of view.
After re-evaluating the Armor Spikes statement, I personally suppose you would be correct, though it takes quite a bit of finagling to get to that conclusion. In short, the Klar would be attacking as per Spiked Armor in the weapon table, but Klars are not Armor, they're Shields, and Armor Spikes (which attack as per Spiked Armor) can only be applied to Armor, not Shields, meaning the possibility of attaching Armor Spikes to a Klar is theoretically impossible.
There is always the whole "Specific Trumps General," in that Klars may have a green card to the whole Armor Spikes thing, but since it's not explicitly stated, it leads to table variation. That being said, I'm sure Scott Wilhelm and Co. will tell you that Klars can, in fact, have Armor Spikes be attached to them because the rules say they have them, so to that end, I'd still be "correct" in my initial argument. I don't agree with it, but such is the way of accepting Paizo errata.
The item doesn't say that it's a Spiked Shield. You can always argue that it's supposed to be a Spiked Shield, but the rules don't say that, and you run into a very similar conundrum as above, in that you could apply Shield Spikes to it because it wasn't written to have Shield Spikes. In fact, the original entry that Das Bier referenced is still broken because it treats Shield Spikes as their own unique weapons, which isn't supported by any other rules in the book, and is actually not referenced to be their own weapon in their own respective entry, so the claim that the original entry proposed that it was a Spiked Shield would be equally false as if claiming this interpretation intended for the Klar to emulate a Spiked Shield.
Clearly, it's not rules consistent, because being able to attack with a single weapon for TWF is physically impossible unless it possesses the Double quality. That being said, there are weapons that have two "sides" to them that are not Double Weapons, and weapons that are supposed to be Double Weapons, but actually aren't (because they lack the Double property), even with the recent Ultimate Equipment errata, so the point that you can TWF with a single Klar still has weight. Otherwise, it's a giant swiss army knife, and I'm sure you would agree that is clearly not intended.
Take a moment and look at all of the other "spiked" subjects in the game. A Spiked Pit trap deals Piercing damage (in addition to fall damage). Spiked Shields deal Piercing damage. Every form of "spikes" that's been written prior to the Klar has been Piercing damage. This sets a precedent within the game, which I'm sure you would be aware of, that, if it's Spikes/Spiked, it deals Piercing damage, whether it's an override, or an equal opportunity lender (such as in the case of the Morningstar, which does two types of damage at the same time). Obviously the latter of the two is the rarest form of application, whereas the former is the most common.
Now, you go on to say that the Klar is to emulate a Spiked Shield, correct? And Spiked Shields deal Piercing damage, correct? So what is special about the Klar, which is supposed to emulate a Spiked Shield (which deals Piercing Damage), that allows it to circumvent the current precedent that Spikes/Spiked things deal Piercing damage? Nothing in the description amounts to anything; it actually provides counter-evidence, saying it counts as a Spiked subject which deals Piercing damage. The table says Slashing, sure, but considering there are multiple Spiked sources that say Piercing, the Klar is trying to emulate one of those existing Spiked sources (which deals Piercing), and nothing is said as to why the Klar deals Slashing, the evidence would suggest that the Klar should deal Piercing damage.
There's also the factor as to whether the damage dice is even correct, since, if it's supposed to emulate a Light Spiked Shield, as you said, and nothing else in the description makes it a weapon of any other kind, it would deal 1D3, or 1D4 (depending on the whole "Armor Spikes v. Shield Spikes" argument), meaning that its current damage, 1D6, is grossly overvalued, and is actually equal to a Spiked Heavy Shield, which the Klar is not stated to emulate.
Klar threads! Moar HATES! Popcorn all around!
After re-evaluating the Armor Spikes statement, I personally suppose you would be correct, though it takes quite a bit of finagling to get to that conclusion. In short, the Klar would be attacking as per Spiked Armor in the weapon table, but Klars are not Armor, they're Shields, and Armor Spikes (which attack as per Spiked Armor) can only be applied to Armor, not Shields, meaning the possibility of attaching Armor Spikes to a Klar is theoretically impossible.Varisia, Birthplace of Legends just outright says it's a 'type of spiked shield'. Which is really nice and much better language. It was also published around the same time as Ultimate Equipment (the same day, according to amazon but the wiki says that date is wrong so I'm not exactly sure on the timeframe), so I think it's hard to argue that there was a huge shift of intent.
Not saying you're wrong in being confused, just wishing they had gone with cleaner language, and hadn't somehow managed to skip over it when they published their errata.
Now, you go on to say that the Klar is to emulate a Spiked Shield, correct? And Spiked Shields deal Piercing damage, correct? So what is special about the Klar, which is supposed to emulate a Spiked Shield (which deals Piercing Damage), that allows it to circumvent the current precedent that Spikes/Spiked things deal Piercing damage? Nothing in the description amounts to anything; it actually provides counter-evidence, saying it counts as a Spiked subject which deals Piercing damage. The table says Slashing, sure, but considering there are multiple Spiked sources that say Piercing, the Klar is trying to emulate one of those existing Spiked sources (which deals Piercing), and nothing is said as to why the Klar deals Slashing, the evidence would suggest that the Klar should deal Piercing damage.I'd argue that's just a matter of Specific trumps General. It's a spiked light shield, except it does 1d6 slashing damage and isn't a light weapon....
The thing I don't get is that they could've just copy-pasted that instead of just re-typing everything from scratch.
All I'm saying is that there is a precedent in regards to Spiked subjects in the game being Piercing damage, and that the Klar gives no special indication as to why it breaks that precedent; could it deal Slashing damage? Maybe. But if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
Then you treat it as if it were a duck. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
Darksol and swoosh guys hats off for having a civilized conversation about thr klar.
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No one is talking about putting the Bashing Enchantment on Armor Spikes. We are talking about the Bashing Enchantment on the Klar, a Shield that does 1d6 Slashing Damage on a shield bash.
You most certainly are trying to stick bashing on something that already has a spike on it. Why is the light wooden shield that it says it is dealing 1d6 damage? Because of the giant spike sticking out of it.
Let me Give you the answer nearly every PFS DM is going to give you
And you KNOW that. So what do you want to accomplish by annoying people with these terrible, disingenuous raw shenanigans?
Ultimate Equipment is very recently updated. Its description of the Klar is the most accurate and up-to-date description of the Klar. It can't be dismissed as a misprint.
Then you cannot increase the damage of the armor spikes with the bashing enchantment.
Again, this presumes that the Damage listed for the Klar is somehow not Shield Bashing Damage
There is no presumption.
Klar: The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon consisting
of a short blade bound to the skull of a horned reptile.
See page 153 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
So what you have is not RAW vs RAI, its RAW vs RAW AND RAI.
We know what a light shield used to shield bash does and its not 1d6. So there is something about the klar that makes it do 1d6. Could it POSSIBLY be the giant spike sticking out of it?
And before you cry subjective, interpretation, cheating, mere human conclusion that pales in comparison to THE GLORY OF THE RAW! and whatever that level of sanity in rules reading is a necessary component of the game and part of the DM's job
Furthermore, as Darksol revealed, this interpretation of the Klar seriously overcomplicates the weapon, turning it essentially into a 1-handed Double Weapon, allowing you to make Slashing 1-handed attacks with the blade and shield bashing attacks as a light shield.
your other friend, the virtual limbs rule, would prevent that.
I feel that always interpreting the rules to the mechanical disadvantage of the PC is at least as bad.
Bully for you. But there's too much insanity that way to make the game playable, which is why so many of the people that have experience running don't do it.
It's a small blade sticking out of it, not a giant spike.
As for RAI, James Jacobs reiterated that the intention was for the Klar to simply be a spiked shield that instead did slashing damage.
Anyone who advocates that the armor spikes language in the Klar is intentional so it can surpass design limits and break the rules, I personally believe to be nothing more then a loophole exploiter. This isn't an MMO where you can rapidly recode an exploit and close it. It's so obviously a cut and paste, and a design language error by someone who didn't know the difference.
The fact they can't issue a FAQ and clarify it, that's a different problem.
Otherwise, carry on!
James Jacobs reiterated that the intention was for the Klar to simply be a spiked shield that instead did slashing damage.
[citation needed]
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isn't the damage a lil high for a light spiked shield?
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Nearly every single person I've seen play in Pathfinder Society is in a "deliberate pursuit of mechanical advantage."
Having a conversation the same way you apparently play a game by taking a quote out of context, ignoring what is said, distorting what is meant, turning it into a strawman and ignoring any and all indications that you have the wrong idea does not let you win the argument any more than the rules lawyering lets you win pathfinder.
"You are reading only the rules that would allow this combination and ignoring all of the MANY warning signs that it would not work in deliberate pursuit of mechanical advantage."
Is every single person in pathfinder society doing THAT to get a mechanical advantage? Because that is an entirely different thing than what you're talking about. I know every group has one, but its not the whole of every group.
Mostly, I shun RAI arguments because mostly they are a matter of conjecture.
I hate to break this to you, but so is the interpretative process that makes the words mean anything more than ink on a page. There is no one true raw and you can tell that because if you put any two raw only adherents in the same conversation they immediately disagree with each other over everything.
But it seems abundantly clear that the intent of providing abundance of character building options is that you are supposed to look out for new and interesting ways to combine the abundance of Feats, Equipment, Class Abilities, and Spells to create interesting, and yes, even powerful effects.
By all means, i LOVE doing this. Breaking the game the normal way ? Boring. Breaking bonekeep with a my little pony themed druid? Priceless.
But that isn't what you're doing here. You're not using the options that have been presented you're making new ones that aren't there. They are entirely different things. Its the difference between optimization and munchkining. An optimizer works with the parts as they are, a munchkin tries to make the parts into something they're not supposed to be.
But I think I should get to play Pathfinder Society my own way as long as I can demonstrate that it's legal. And I am quite sure that it is the intent of Paizo Publishing that I may.
Somewhere there may be the great valley of Gygax where the DM is obligated to accept any argument that a player comes up with and the D12 spins and dances in usefulness.
But its not the PFS I've seen.
That's not the pfs i know
That's not the PFS I love
And its not a PFS I would participate in.
I want to play a fantasy game where brave explorers delve into dungeons, rescue helpless captives from certain doom, find the lost histories of the past and escape certain doom by the skin of their teeth. Not play gotcha with the grammar police and sentence diagram Yahtzee to dangle a participle.
Most PFS dms i know feel the same way. Which is why PFS isn't done that way. If thats how you want to run things, feel free to step behind the screen and see how it goes. Outside of that? Its not going to happen.
Because a klar doing 2d6 prevents heroic deeds.
Because a klar doing 2d6 prevents heroic deeds.
Because the mindset that gets you to a 2d6 klar and the dm is a bad person for stopping that combination also gets you 300 attacks a round with throwing shields, intimidating the enemy into surrendering from 2 miles out, attacking with a shield underwater while upside down with 4 negative levels at 6oo feet with no penalty and a host of other "its raw" insanity. Instead of the DM making a good faith effort to understand and apply the rules you're left with the DM arbitrarily deciding "Ok, no, that breaks the game this doesn't break the game this power level is ok that power level is too much..."
ok, that was a slippery slope. I don't think those things should have to do with the klar.