Titan Fighter - Giant Weapon Wielder + dual wielding large bastard swords

[Sakrileg]

So I have a player that is looking at this abilit/class feature to allow him to monkey grip in essence. The rules are stated at the bottom.

At level 1 he takes Titan fighter which states that he can use a two handed large weapon with two hands. So a large bastard sword would be wielded with two hands because no exotic weapon proficiency.

So he decides to go ranger for levels one and 2 and picks two weapon fighting style. And uses his level 3 feat to grab exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword) which would allow him to wield it with one hand instead of two.

I understand his logic. Because the class feature allows him to wield with two hands, and the feat is now augmenting how he wields the swords.

Question is: Is he wrong?

Rules:

Wielding a one handed weapon on size category bigger than the character takes two hands and -2 penalty. So human wielding a large longs word takes two hands instead of one.

Giant Weapon Wielder (Ex)

At 1st level, a titan fighter can wield two-handed melee weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself, treating them as two-handed weapons. He takes an additional –2 penalty on attack rolls when using an over-sized two-handed weapon.

This ability replaces the fighter's 1st level bonus feat.

[Snakers]

No, because if you're not treating it as a two handed weapon, titan fighter doesn't apply. You can't wield a two handed weapon as a two handed weapon in one hand without very specific wording that I think might exist in Thunder and Fang but I can't check right now.

[Chess Pwn]

titan fighter can't do it. But a titan barb and wield two greatswords.

Titan fighter can do a large greatsword for a -4 as a THW
Titan fighter can do a large bastard sword for a -4 as a THW
Anyone can do a large bastard sword with the feat for a -2 as a THW
Titan fighter doesn't do anything with a bastard sword with the feat. It's now a large one-handed weapon and titan fighter only works with large two-handed weapons.

[Sakrileg]

Alright. Now I can stomp on his dreams.

[KainPen]

no need to even stomp on them. if you did allow it, he would never hit anyway. he crushed his own dreams, lol you are taking -4 to use oversize weapons, then another -4 on primary hand for two weapon fighting. and another -6 i think for off handed

So you are looking at -8 total on the primary hand and -10 on the off. he not going to hit anything and do any damage anyway. he better off just power attacking.

I think they fixed the titan barb so you can do this. but I think the ability that allows you to do it does not come in until after level 4. titan Fighter may have something similar but I remember. It will not come until late.

The only way to effectively do it is with Large Sun Blades, because they are treated as Large short swords for wielding reasons. They start out as light. with effortless laces reduce the penalties.

[thaX]

I will only post here once.

Whatever rules is being looked at, correlated or interactions between the two, nothing is allowing a Two Handed weapon to be wielded in the Off Hand.

Oversized or no, it is still considered a Two Handed weapon for that character, even if he can wield otherwise.

I did a rules breakdown in another thread about this issue, specifically about the Earthbreakers among other things. Light and One Handed weapons can be wielded in the Off Hand. Two Handed weapons do not have any reference about the Off Hand, however, and can not be.

[fretgod99]

thaX wrote:

I will only post here once.

Whatever rules is being looked at, correlated or interactions between the two, nothing is allowing a Two Handed weapon to be wielded in the Off Hand.

Oversized or no, it is still considered a Two Handed weapon for that character, even if he can wield otherwise.

I did a rules breakdown in another thread about this issue, specifically about the Earthbreakers among other things. Light and One Handed weapons can be wielded in the Off Hand. Two Handed weapons do not have any reference about the Off Hand, however, and can not be.

As noted, this has been hashed out in other threads. But for people who may not be aware of that conversation, please note that the bolded is very much in dispute with thaX's view being in the small minority.

The other view is that if you can treat the weapon as a one-handed weapon, you can do so for all purposes associated with wielding (meaning TWF with THW is perfectly rules-legal).

[thaX]

To clarify here, The overall dispute isn't that the THW can't be wielded, but when it is a THW and when it is not. It is an opinion of some that it is a One Handed Weapon when wielded in such a way, I disagree. It is a Two Handed weapon wielded in One Hand.

The overall concern with this particular issue, though, has been answered in relation to the Bastard Sword. Chess Pwn is correct in his assessment of the four situations denoted.

[Chess Pwn]

thaX, I'm disappointed that you're posting so much after saying you'd only post once.

[thaX]

On the subject.

I am not going to hash out particulars on a conversation that is said and done, I just clarified the nuance of that conversation.

Here is where I posted a rules breakdown of the "handyness" of weapons for those interested.

[Kazaan]

No, don't listen to thaX; he is entirely incorrect. There are two things to consider here; the "effort category" of the weapon, and the "virtual effort category". Effort category is the light/one-handed/two-handed quality of a weapon (daggers are light, longswords are one-handed, greatswords are two-handed). Virtual effort category comes into play when you need to treat a weapon as something other than its normal effort category. For example, Phalanx Fighter can wield a two-handed spear or polearm one-handed while wearing a shield. This means that, for rules elements pertaining to how you wield or use the weapon, it no longer counts as two-handed but, instead, counts as one-handed. It occupies only one hand and also only takes one hand worth of attack economy for the purpose of TWF. It also only gains normal Str and Power Attack bonuses to damage rather than two-handed benefits. Additionally, rules elements that require wielding a two-handed weapon (eg. Pushing Assault) no longer function. You treat it as if you were wielding a one-handed weapon for all purposes except physical properties of the weapon such as HP and enchanting purposes (ie. if a rules element tells you to treat the weapon as one-handed, it doesn't have fewer HP nor does it qualify for enchantments that must be placed on a one-handed weapon).

There is one notable situation concerning the Lance. When wielding a Lance while mounted, it uses different wording that makes a large difference; instead of wielding it "one-handed", you wield it "in one hand". This is not applying a virtual effort category but, rather, providing an exception to the rules for wielding a two-handed weapon. Normally, wielding a two-handed weapon occupies two hands. Wield a Lance while mounted only occupies one hand, but does not change any other rules elements; it still counts as two-handed for any and all other purposes, including Str and Power Attack bonuses, feats like Pushing Assault, and subsuming your potential off-hand attack economy.

In summary, if the ability says you wield a normally two-handed weapon "one-handed" or "as a one-handed weapon", then you treat it as a one-handed weapon for everything except physical properties inherent to it as an object. But if it says, "in one hand", then it only frees up one of your hands for purposes that require a free hand (eg. guiding your mount with reins, using a shield, catch/deflect arrows, etc).

That having been said, there's only one valid option I can see for this person to TWF with large bastard swords and that is to use Sunblades. Sunblades are Bastard Swords and deal damage as Bastard Swords, but are wielded easily as if they were Shortswords (light weapons). So a medium character can treat Large Sunblades as if they were large shortswords and their virtual effort category becomes one-handed; so he's wielding a pair of one-handed weapons. But keep in mind he'd probably do somewhat sub-par damage like this, especially compared to someone wielding, say, a pair of Sawtooth Sabres or Kukri/Wakazashi.

[Gulthor]

Ignore thaX.

But it's clearly a terrible idea as your player will come to realize anyway, so this concept will resolve itself.

[thaX]

Kazan...

It matters not what the Phrasing is. "As a one handed weapon" - "Treated like a..." - "Wielded as..." "Treats the weapon as..."

It is being used in a particular way. You can use what is normally a Two Handed weapon and with a feat or ability that give the character the skill to do it, wield it with one hand. The Normal designation of that weapon does not change.

It neither changes for using a Two Handed weapon in one hand, nor when using a One Handed weapon in two. The two situations are the same.

You are correct that the weapon counts as one handed for effects and damage as it is being wielded with one hand. This goes for a Light weapon, a One Handed weapon, and a Two Handed weapon.

The weapon will met out damage according to how it is wielded, and effects that feats have are determined on how the weapon is wielded at the time.

Say it one last time. The weapon itself never changes.

There is no virtual effort category. There is rules for size differentials between the character size vs. the size the weapon was made for.

[Dallium]

thaX, you've been repeatedly and roundly proven wrong. Please stop lying to people

[Chess Pwn]

I didn't know that 4 = once...

[thaX]

"Lying."

This, more than anything else, cuts deep.

The rules are what they are. I try to clarify and explain. It is what it is.

I have not, nor will I ever, provide false information concerning this great game we play. We may disagree about the application of the size rules (arbitrary vs. written) in regards to weapons, though I have yet seen any other rules that would change a weapon's designation.

I have posted more than I should about this because the rules are spread out through three different sections of the Core Rulebook. Newer feats and abilities are using these weapon rules and some players get confused on what they can or can not do. Double wielding two handed weapons goes beyond any intent of these various abilities.

Five. Your right, Chess Pwn, I should have just left it at the first one.

[Kazaan]

thaX wrote:

Five. Your right, Chess Pwn, I should have just left it at the first one.

No, the first one was one too many. And don't insult the rest of us here. We are trying to clarify and explain things to people seeking information. You are spreading disinformation and then hiding behind feigned innocence and good intentions and I honestly consider that a personal affront. You are taking what I do in earnest and twisting it into some delusional game for your own benefit. I don't know why or how you find it entertaining, but it's abhorrent none the less.

[thaX]

So instead of looking at what I have posted and seeing how the rules interact in this issue, instead you posted "I'm right-your wrong?"

It is not disinformation, I don't see how a difference of how the rule is interpreted means that there is two sides of a very rigid coin.

For example, the difference between the Lance and the other situations is that the Lance is still getting Two Handed particulars when used in such a way while on a mount. The other Two Handed weapon, however, are getting One Handed particulars when used in that way.

Nothing I have posted is wrong, it is just that a few (very vocal) posters have a vehemently different opinion. I just point out that the misuse of the size differential between character and weapon does not apply in these particular situations.

It does a little here, as an oversized Bastard Sword is still One Handed (For those who are proficient), even if the undersized character needs to use it as a Two Handed weapon. (Hence the ability for the Titan Archtype does not help)

Six.

I am done.

[thaX]

Looking at it, I should clarify my last sentence.

The character can already wield the oversized Bastard Sword (two handed) so the ability allowing him to wield an oversized Two Handed weapon doesn't do anything for him in that respect.

[CWheezy]

Its not a few, you just refuse to change on this. Even after being shown youre wrong previously

[Chess Pwn]

I'm not sure what CWheezy is getting at, but thaX is correct in his last post that this class provides little in means of large bastard swords. You can't wield them one-handed, nor could you wield a huge one.