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So I was thinking about the fact that the three 'Alternate Classes' (Anti-paladin, Ninja, and Samurai) are supposed to be archetypes that were so extensive that it made more sense to present them as complete conversions.
Wouldn't that mean that you could still treat them as archetypes? They already have the rule that you can't multi-class with the parent class, so the only thing that breaking them out as archetypes might change would be whether they could stack with OTHER archetypes.
For example...
The Ninja alters every aspect of the Rogue EXCEPT; Hit Die, BAB, Saves, Skill ranks per level, sneak attack, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge.
However, that would mean that, as an archetype, it could still combine with the other Rogue archetypes; Bandit, Burglar, Cat Burglar, Sanctified Rogue, Scout, and Trapsmith... all of which swap out only uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.
Samurai replaces Tactician, Cavalier's Charge, Expert Trainer, Greater Tactician, Mighty Charge, Master Tactician, and Supreme Charge. Thus, it could potentially be combined with the Musketeer and Wave Rider archetypes.
So what do people think? Is the Ninja Scout an allowed class? Wave Rider Samurai?
Do the various Anti-paladin abilities which exactly mimic Paladin abilities with just the alignment/energy swapped (e.g. Smite Good vs Smite Evil or Channel Negative vs Channel Positive) count as 'replacements'? If so then Anti-paladin replaces everything except Hit Die, BAB, Saves, Skill ranks per level, and Weapon/Armor proficiencies... and thus is unlikely to ever qualify for any other Paladin archetypes. Otherwise... (Un)Holy Gun Anti-paladin?
What about Unchained classes? It has been said that they qualify for some of the archetypes of the 'Chained' version of the class. Does that mean they too could be treated as archetypes to be combined with other archetypes of the base class? Would extending the concept to the Hybrid classes (e.g. Arcanist being an archetype of Wizard and/or Sorcerer) be a bridge too far? The rules allow multi-classing hybrid classes with their parent(s), but require matching decisions on class features in such cases. Could we eliminate the multi-classing in exchange for potential archetype stacking?
Samurai, Antipaladin, and Ninja qualify for any archetype of their base classes that they have the class feature to trade out for.
This Ninja Scout is a valid choice.
This also applies to Unchained Rogue,
Extending it to hybrid classes would be a no.
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Samurai, Antipaladin, and Ninja are officially NOT archetypes that are super big. They are officially their own separate classes that may or may not interact with their base class for archetypes and FCB. The accepted concensus was that before the official anouncement that they were just archetyps and thus could take other archetypes if they qualified for them and could take the FCB.
Unchained is a base, and archetypes maybe can be placed on them, depending on if they still have the same class features.
Hybrid classes have nothing to do with their parent classes other than they were an idea for creating the class.
Samurai, Antipaladin, and Ninja are officially NOT archetypes that are super big. They are officially their own separate classes that may or may not interact with their base class for archetypes and FCB. The accepted concensus was that before the official anouncement that they were just archetyps and thus could take other archetypes if they qualified for them and could take the FCB.
When did this happen?
I recall once where (I think) Mark Seifter had said that Ninjs Scout was a valid thing.
I could also be recalling incorrectly.
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I recall once where (I think) Mark Seifter had said that Ninjs Scout was a valid thing.
I have seen postings by James Jacobs and Jason Bulmahn saying that alternate classes can be combined with archetypes, but nothing '100% official'. Mark Seifter has apparently made statements both for and against, and most recently said it needs to be FAQ'd.
On the other hand, combining unchained classes with archetypes of their chained versions is in the published rules... but it isn't always clear which ones work. For example, at least one of the subsequent Monk archetypes listed ways to apply it to UnMonk by assuming specific optional powers are taken/replaced... could the same flexibility be applied to pre-UnMonk archetypes?
Notably, sites like the SRD and Archives of Nethys don't identify any of these possible options except for a handful of newer archetypes that specify both chained and unchained usage.
I'm going to do some more work to identify possible combinations and complications (e.g. can any archetypes of alternate classes be applied to the original class?).
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The newer archetypes Specifically stated in their write-up that they could apply to the unchained monk/summoner.
Unchained monk can't take any monk archetype. It can only take archetypes that say they are for the unchained monk.
Summoners, barbarians and rogues were said they could use all previous archetypes I believe. But then PFS made a rule that only certain archetypes could work for the unchained version.
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For archetypes of alternate classes I wanted to make sure that I wasn't forgetting any;
Ninja: None
Samurai: Sword Saint & Yojimbo
Antipaladin: Knight of the Sepulcher, Iron Tyrant, and Tyrant
If it is just those five then none of them can be applied back to the original class as they each have at least one conflicting replacement.
If we treat abilities with different names but identical effects (e.g. Divine Grace vs Unholy Resilience), heavily overlapping abilities (e.g. Rogue Talents vs Ninja Tricks), and abilities which have the same effects on opposite alignments (e.g. Aura of Good vs Aura of Evil) or energy types (e.g. Channel positive energy vs Channel negative energy) as the same then;
Ninja could potentially also combine with Heister Rogue from Ultimate Intrigue as that replaces only Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and three rogue talents.
Antipaladin could potentially combine with Hospitaler, Oath against Chaos, Oath against Savagery, Oath of Loyalty (this one doesn't really work without creating customized 'reverse' options), Oath of Vengeance, and Warrior of the Holy Light.
Each of these archetypes would need to be similarly 'reversed' in order to make sense, but for the most part it really is as simple as swapping good/evil, positive/negative, lawful/chaotic, et cetera. The oath spells being the biggest potential stumbling block.
It could even be taken a step further and treat things like 'Mercy' and 'Cruelty' as opposites... at which point every paladin archetype could be applied to anti-paladins (Gray Antipaladin) and every anti-paladin archetype to paladins (Paladin Tyrant = Chaotic Good Paladin)... though again in some cases a special feature wouldn't have an existing 'reverse' option (e.g. Knight of the Sepulcher Paladin would be a mess).
Similarly, treating the Rogue/Ninja and Cavalier/Samurai abilities which differ but correlate (e.g. Trap sense +1 to +6 and No trace +1 to +6) as the same would allow all of those archetypes to be shared in each direction (e.g. Cavalier Yojimbo or Ninja Acrobat).
Obviously, each step there gets further into the realm of GM discretion and house rules, but there are a lot of archetypes which could easily be more widely applied.
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Looking at the Unchained classes, the book says, "Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."
There are a few ways to interpret this;
1: The original & unchained class must have exactly the same ability. Abilities with the same name, but different details do not count. In such case, there are virtually no pre-Unchained archetypes which can be applied to the Unchained classes.
2: The original & unchained classes must have abilities with the same name. This would allow all Summoner archetypes to be used by the Unchained Summoner, but less than half the Barbarian and Rogue archetypes would be available due to the name change of one commonly replaced ability from 'Trap Sense' to 'Danger Sense'.
3: The original & unchained classes must have effectively equivalent features... since Danger Sense includes all the benefits of Trap Sense (plus more) it counts as Trap Sense. This would allow all Barbarian, Rogue, and Summoner archetypes to be used by their Unchained variants.
The Unchained Monk would appear to be out of luck, but there is some possible wiggle room with Ki Powers. For example;
Monks get Abundant Step at 12th level. UnMonks get a ki power at 12th level and can choose Abundant Step as that power. So, could an UnMonk give up their 12th level ki power and the option to choose Abundant Step at any other level to qualify for the Monk of the Four Winds archetype? The other powers changed by the archetype are common to both versions of the class.
If UnMonk ki powers can swap for Monk abilities with the same name then the question would be whether they could do so at earlier levels... most of the abilities 'lost' by the UnMonk were gained by Monks at odd levels, while UnMonk ki powers are gained at even levels. Thus, Abundant Step and Slow Fall are the only ones which can be replaced at their original levels. If a one earlier level ki power can be swapped then most of the Monk archetypes become available to the UnMonk. Only the abilities Fast Movement, Maneuver Training, and Quivering Palm remain unswappable. Fast Movement & Quivering Palm are gained one level later by UnMonks than Monks, and Maneuver Training is not available to UnMonks at all... though they effectively get the same benefit since they have full BAB progression to begin with.
Subsequent Monk archetypes have allowed the sort of 'ki power for ability' swapping discussed here. Applying these standards to the earlier archetypes would make all or nearly all of them available to UnMonks.
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Looking at the Unchained classes, the book says, "Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."
There are a few ways to interpret this;
1: The original & unchained class must have exactly the same ability. Abilities with the same name, but different details do not count. In such case, there are virtually no pre-Unchained archetypes which can be applied to the Unchained classes.
2: The original & unchained classes must have abilities with the same name. This would allow all Summoner archetypes to be used by the Unchained Summoner, but less than half the Barbarian and Rogue archetypes would be available due to the name change of one commonly replaced ability from 'Trap Sense' to 'Danger Sense'.
3: The original & unchained classes must have effectively equivalent features... since Danger Sense includes all the benefits of Trap Sense (plus more) it counts as Trap Sense. This would allow all Barbarian, Rogue, and Summoner archetypes to be used by their Unchained variants.The Unchained Monk would appear to be out of luck, but there is some possible wiggle room with Ki Powers. For example;
Monks get Abundant Step at 12th level. UnMonks get a ki power at 12th level and can choose Abundant Step as that power. So, could an UnMonk give up their 12th level ki power and the option to choose Abundant Step at any other level to qualify for the Monk of the Four Winds archetype? The other powers changed by the archetype are common to both versions of the class.
If UnMonk ki powers can swap for Monk abilities with the same name then the question would be whether they could do so at earlier levels... most of the abilities 'lost' by the UnMonk were gained by Monks at odd levels, while UnMonk ki powers are gained at even levels. Thus, Abundant Step and Slow Fall are the only ones which can be replaced at their original levels. If a one earlier level ki power can be...
@2/3: Danger Sense says it counts as trap sense for that purpose. Unchained is all about tinkering your game, so I'd say go with whatever your group prefers, but by default, you can do the summoner archetypes that don't involve its form, a strong majority of barbarian archetypes (probably anything that doesn't replace rage with something else), I think 100% of rogue archetypes, and no older monk archetypes. On the case of monk archetypes, several pre-Unchained monk archetypes were straight-up power increases for the monk which due to the issues with core monk wasn't a bad thing at the time but would potentially be a problem for your group if you decided to go against the suggestions in the book and allow them with the Unchained monk, which is designed to put out a potent offense without them. If it isn't, then by all means give it a shot!
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Danger Sense says it counts as trap sense for that purpose.
Ah. So it does. I recalled that it covered the effects of trap sense, but not that it specifically states it should be treated as such for pre-reqs and archetype replacements.
That really does leave the UnMonk the odd man out for archetypes. Your note about its greater starting power makes sense, but it does result in the class having comparatively limited 'range of options'... though the ki power system helps with that to some degree. It even includes options from the Qinggong Monk archetype built in. Options for UnMonk ki powers from other Monk archetypes might be a way to extend this in the future... and the fact that several newer archetypes apply to both Monk & UnMonk is also helping to diversify their portfolio.
This month's books had a Ninja Archetype if that helps the matter.
It does. I think that is the first Ninja archetype. Like the other alternate class archetypes, it doesn't qualify even for theoretical application back to the base class under standard rules (though several come close).
That really does leave the UnMonk the odd man out for archetypes. Your note about its greater starting power makes sense, but it does result in the class having comparatively limited 'range of options'... though the ki power system helps with that to some degree. It even includes options from the Qinggong Monk archetype built in. Options for UnMonk ki powers from other Monk archetypes might be a way to extend this in the future... and the fact that several newer archetypes apply to both Monk & UnMonk is also helping to diversify their portfolio.
Indeed, good insights. And if you want to play one of the more-powerful-diverging-range-of-options monk (like a zen archer), you can still play the archetype off of core monk; it should be much more balanced with the non-archetyped Unchained monk than it was with the non-archetyped core monk.
The name of that Ninja archetype is... Frozen Shadow? I think.
Antipaladin: Knight of the Sepulcher, Iron Tyrant, and Tyrant
Missing the Insinuator from Agents of Evil.
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Xethik: Yes.
Slithery D: I thought I was missing one. Thanks.
The Insinuator is a nice case because it provides a lot of framework for potentially making 'Paladins' of virtually any alignment by swapping in 'reversed' and 'equivalent' powers. Pure house rules territory at that point of course.
So, summary up to the present;
Ninja archetypes: Frozen Shadow + Rogue archetypes Bandit, Burglar, Cat Burglar, Sanctified Rogue, Scout, and Trapsmith
Samurai archetypes: Sword Saint & Yojimbo + Cavalier archetypes Musketeer & Wave Rider
Paladin archetypes: Insinuator, Iron Tyrant, Knight of the Sepulcher, and Tyrant
Dot!