Why does the Kensai use the Duelist's AC progression?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Being capped at level to AC seems like it doesn't do anything other than make low level Kensai kind of miserable to play and makes Strength based Kensai nearly impossible to swing unless you start at level 4 or 5 or something.

It works for the Duelist (ish, duelists are terrible, but still) because it's on top of your armor. But for the Kensai it's a replacement to your armor like the monk's AC bonus.

Seems needlessly punitive at low levels to me.

The Exchange

I recall quite a bit of discussion on this when Ultimate Combat first came out. In many ways it boils down to Mage Armour not being on the Magus spell list, but beyond that it's perhaps best to just wear haramaki armour (no ASF) and be content that you'll be 3 AC behind a standard Magus (in a chain shirt) for a while.

Plus, remember that pretty much all low-level Magus characters have miserable AC anyway (due to not using shields and having better things to spend Feats and Ability Score points on) so like all Magi go for the 'try to kill 'em before they get to attack you' play style. As soon as you hit level two spells AC won't be your main defense anyway.


Hmm, short analysis:

Level 1: Normal magus starts with studded leather (assuming 100g for chain shirt is too much at WBL 140). Kensai gets +1 AC by Int. Net disadvantage is -2 AC. It's partially offset by Weapon Focus which slightly increases your chance to kill before being hurt.

Level 2: Normal magus likely upgrades to chain shirt. Kensai gets another +1 AC by Int. Net disadvantage stays at -2.

Level 3: Normal magus probably upgrades to chain shirt +1. Kensai can get bracers of armor +1 for pretty much the same amount of money. In case of Int 16+ the disadvantage shrinks to -1, else it stays at -2.

From now on, things become better, your AC will profit more from Int and Dex than a regular magus - items and spells are your friend. Some more thoughts to playstyle:

* Don't neglect your Dex completely because you are Str based.
* You are a dedicated damage dealer, and it's no shame to hide behind more stable mates (cleric, full martial etc.) before your first strike. Delay your action if necessary. Simply rushing in is for Int 7 barbarians.
* There is the Vanish spell to get the first strike or to escape.
* For messy situations there is always full defense (+6 AC with 3 ranks in Acrobatics).
* If you notice you are still in trouble at level 3, consider a defensive magus arcane like Flamboyant Arcana (to parry attacks) or Spell Shield.


Other low level options include the Shield Spell for a +4 shield bonus, Cat's Grace for a +2 dodge bonus, Ablative Barrier for a +2 armor bonus, and Djezet Skin (Armor Master's Handbook) for a +3 armor bonus (cost: 3410 gp).


If you invest in UMD (or if you have a wizard/sorcerer in the party), you could always get a wand of mage armor. I do that for monks all the time.

Dark Archive

In my experience GMing for pow level PFS, Kensai bros are pretty well off. A dex build can start wih a +4 mod, 1 AC from Int, and a wand of Shield. Nevermind having a wand of mage armor being used on them by a friendly caster or a clutch UMD check.

Liberty's Edge

Gisher, cat's grace enhances dex, so it's not a dodge bonus. Armor bonuses don't stack, so you can't stack ablative armor and the skin. But most magi acquire mage armor from a party caster or learn to use the wand, potions in a pinch are affordable after level 1.

Scarab Sages

And there is no reason at all to not wear a haramaki without proficiency. 0% ASF and 0 ACP. You aren't a monk so none of your class features turn off.


Is taking arcane armor training and wearing 0 ACP armor worthwhile?

Scarab Sages

Arcane armor training isn't worth the swift action.


That's what I was thinking, but it looks like the only time you would need that swift action, you're not casting spells so you won't be needing to blow it on AAT.


I once played an eldritch knight and got so sick of wasting my swift on armor training, that I eventually ditched armor and went to bracers.

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nicholas storm wrote:
I once played an eldritch knight and got so sick of wasting my swift on armor training, that I eventually ditched armor and went to bracers.

Unless you're casting quickened spells, you either need the swift action for Arcane Strike while attacking, or AAT while casting, with no overlap.

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Yeah, either get another caster to give you Mage Armor, UMD or potion it yourself, or take the arcana to add it to your spell list.


Magi use swift actions a lot to enhance their weapons.


blashimov wrote:
Gisher, cat's grace enhances dex, so it's not a dodge bonus.

You are correct. My mistake.

blashimov wrote:
Armor bonuses don't stack, so you can't stack ablative armor and the skin.

I was listing a variety of options. I wasn't suggesting that they would all work simultaneously.

blashimov wrote:
But most magi acquire mage armor from a party caster or learn to use the wand, potions in a pinch are affordable after level 1.

We seem to have had very different experiences playing Magi. Other than Kensai, all the Magi I am aware of, including my own, use actual armor rather than Mage Armor.

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