First, this probably belonged in the homebrew forum. Second, your version sounds a lot like the arcanist with the occultist archetype. Third, you may just want to try the unchained summoner. But I personally don't like the unchained version of the eidolon, because it is far too restrictive.
Hello all,
I really want the summoner to work because I love the idea, but every thing I've read online seems to argue that the summoner is really broken.
What makes it broken is the eidolon. If you keep the eidolon, it will remain broken more or less no matter what else you do. If you lose the eidolon, then it's a mediocre substitute for a conjuration specialist wizard. The Pathfinder Unchained book took a middle ground and tried to nerf the summoner's eidolon.
The unchained summoner from the Pathfinder Unchained book is pretty balanced. The unchained summoner's eidolon got a nerf to offensive output along side a few spell nerfs. I am pretty happy with the class power level now.
Shrug. I agree that it's balanced, but I also think it's not a very good "summoner." The idea that a summoner can't do planar binding as effectively as an illusionist wizard just breaks the u-summoner across the game's knee like a dowel rod. But your opinion, of course, is your own.
|
I think the idea od an Unchained Summoner being bad at Planar Binding isn't such a big deal because the flavor of their Eidolon makes it act like a Planar Binding that comes for free and scales with your level. You are binding a specific species of outsider into your service, after all.
Klladdy, if you want to monkey with the mechanics, I'd say you do the following: Take the APG Summoner, import the spell list from the Unchained Summoner, and use the Unchained version of the Pounce evolution. That will fix a majority of the potential balance issues while still preserving the customization of the Eidolon that draws a lot of us to the class in the first place.
...besides, giving an Eidolon to a full on Conjuration Wizard is way more abusable in the long run.
I think the idea od an Unchained Summoner being bad at Planar Binding isn't such a big deal because the flavor of their Eidolon makes it act like a Planar Binding that comes for free and scales with your level. You are binding a specific species of outsider into your service, after all.
Yeah, that's basically what breaks it for me. A summoner who can only summon one outsider is like a professional baseball player who can only use one particular bat. If for some reason that bat breaks, he's hosed.
It's not even "a specific species of outsider." It's a single outsider, period. Is Aladdin a powerful summoner because he is friends with one specific genie?
Summoner is the best at summoning spells, and the best at calling one particular outsider. Wizards get calling spells earlier, but aren't as good at them due to lower charisma scores.
|
|
Yeah, that's basically what breaks it for me. A summoner who can only summon one outsider is like a professional baseball player who can only use one particular bat. If for some reason that bat breaks, he's hosed.
I would totally use one bat if I had the power to change it up on the fly and recreate it after it breaks.
Besides, there's always spamming Summon Monster. I'd say the class does a great job at earning its namesake.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Summoner is broken not because of it's Eidolon. That is the Summoner's power. The spells they get make them broken. The spell list is a joke. Some like the healing of Eidolon are nice the rest are mostly garbage. A specialist Wizard has a better spell list still able to cast prohibited spells at a greater cost. The Eidolon is if made right what keeps a Summoner alive.
I'm sorry, I'm using "broken" in too many senses and I'm being unclear.
The original (chained) summoner is overpowered. It's "broken" in the sense that "it will break your game and make your GM cry" The original summoner had a mediocre spell list that made them a so-so conjuration-focused sorcerer; the ability to spam summon monster all day made them useful in combat, and then they got an eidolon that was a better fighter than some of the martials in the party, without the realism limitation of a druid's animal companion. One could build, for example, an eidolon that was a pouncing hexapedal T. rex that shot laser beams out of its eyes and could fly. At which point the fighter just said "that's it, I'm grabbing a beer and the Nintendo."
The unchained (revised) summoner is stupid and vaguely fraudulent because it's not a f------g summoner. It's an adept-level spellcaster with a slightly nerfed pet. Basically, the designers took a not-very-good spell list and ripped out everything worth casting. The new pseudo-summoner was apparently designed by the same person who thinks that Taco Bell is "Mexican," and likes visiting Disney World to see all the foreign countries. And probably thinks Weird Al Yankovic is a rapper.
(See also: "The world needs wannabees....")
The Summoner is broken not because of it's Eidolon. That is the Summoner's power. The spells they get make them broken. The spell list is a joke. Some like the healing of Eidolon are nice the rest are mostly garbage. A specialist Wizard has a better spell list still able to cast prohibited spells at a greater cost. The Eidolon is if made right what keeps a Summoner alive.I'm sorry, I'm using "broken" in too many senses and I'm being unclear.
The original (chained) summoner is overpowered. It's "broken" in the sense that "it will break your game and make your GM cry" The original summoner had a mediocre spell list that made them a so-so conjuration-focused sorcerer; the ability to spam summon monster all day made them useful in combat, and then they got an eidolon that was a better fighter than some of the martials in the party, without the realism limitation of a druid's animal companion. One could build, for example, an eidolon that was a pouncing hexapedal T. rex that shot laser beams out of its eyes and could fly. At which point the fighter just said "that's it, I'm grabbing a beer and the Nintendo."
The unchained (revised) summoner is stupid and vaguely fraudulent because it's not a f------g summoner. It's an adept-level spellcaster with a slightly nerfed pet. Basically, the designers took a not-very-good spell list and ripped out everything worth casting. The new pseudo-summoner was apparently designed by the same person who thinks that Taco Bell is "Mexican," and likes visiting Disney World to see all the foreign countries. And probably thinks Weird Al Yankovic is a rapper.
(See also: "The world needs wannabees....")
The spell list of the original summoner was stupid broken. While technically it was a six level class, it was actually a nine level conjuration class collapsed down to six levels. Summoners were getting beauties like Haste at 4th level and that was just the start of the goodness that kept on coming. If you considered that spell lsit "not very good' it's no wonder you're raging about the revision.
The spell list of the original summoner was stupid broken. While technically it was a six level class, it was actually a nine level conjuration class collapsed down to six levels. Summoners were getting beauties like Haste at 4th level and that was just the start of the goodness that kept on coming. If you considered that spell lsit "not very good' it's no wonder you're raging about the revision.
Try "adequate."
The spell list of the original summoner was stupid broken. While technically it was a six level class, it was actually a nine level conjuration class collapsed down to six levels.
Yes,.... which is/was actually a brilliant design decision for several reasons. The idea of getting a relatively small number of spells a level early (Haste at 4th level! The sky is falling! Oh noes!!!!1!!1!ll!!!1!eleven!!) isn't really that earth-shaking, but the idea of casting 9th level spells out of 6th level slots essentially renders any spell that requires a saving throw to be pretty useless.
So, yes, it's deliberately not a very good spell list.
Thus, the summoner ends up being a second-rate sorcerer, having a limited spell list, doubly limited by the mechanics of casting as a 6th level caster (too few spell slots and save DCs are too low) balanced by the summoning SLA. Essentially, the summoner was better than a sorcerer or wizard at conjuration and almost as good as a bard at buffing, but was very bad at everything else, including battlefield control, save-or-suck, direct damage, or utility spells.
Which, to me, is what a specialist spellcaster should be. Better at their specialty than a wizard, worse outside of it.
The lobotomized u-summoner is simply worse than the wizard or sorcerer. Not as flexible, a worse spell list, and still casting out of a 6th level chassis. A conjuration specialist wizard can spend a single feat to get standard action summons and spam summon monster all day, plus cast spells out of the depth of an actual functioning spell list, along with save DCs that make the spells useful.
So the unchained summoner is now an adept-level caster with a pet. Rather like Aladdin with his genie. Not what I think of as a summoner.