My incredibly cheesy munchkin Rogue build

[DM Darth Loof]

Here's how I built the most munchkin (kitsune) rogue I could:

The idea: This guy (let's call him 'the Drummer') can use Vulpine Charge to make a full attack at the end of a charge, (provided he started in human form), Quick Dirty Trick to replace the first attack with a dirty trick (to blind, of course), and get Sneak Attack on all subsequent attacks that round, (which is 7 attacks for his two weapons, plus bite).

I combined this with Sap Master to double the damage of each sneak attack, for a grand total of 104d6+96 precision damage per round (granted all but 8d6 of that is nonlethal). If a more lethal approach is required, the Drummer can just as easily switch to daggers (or something else) for 56d6 precision damage per round. And this is ignoring the regular damage dealt by the daggers themselves. Also, Greater Dirty Trick means that the enemy will need to take a Standard Action to remove the effect, effectively shuts him down from being any sort of threat to the PC in what little time it has remaining.

All of this is assuming that you're in human form when you make the charge, and that the GM will permit you to make a dirty trick to blind with your hands full—say, by flashing your bushy tail(s) in the enemy's face, or by using some gismo in your sleeve to fling sand at him. Or kick water from a puddle, catch his (or your) cloak with the tip of the sap and fling it to his eye level. There are a lot of options.

If you prefer hands-free, you can just as easily switch out a Rogue Talent for Stage Combatant (a feat which lets you opt for nonlethal damage without that -4 penalty) and build with brass knuckles instead, which would make it easier to do dirty trick shenanigans with your hands. Or, if you could instead get Improved Unarmed strike, and fight with one (or both!) of your hands completely free (I'm pretty sure you can use TWF with unarmed attacks). This has the disadvantage inherent in all natural attacks – you can't really pimp out a regular ol' unarmed strike with magic – but at the same time, there's something appealing in the idea of this guy reliably putting out more DPR than a monk, with his bare hands....

Anyway, here's a feat progression table that I whipped up. Note that I made this with the Unchained Rogue and Brawler archetype of the Fighter, but they're not central to the build. Also, sometimes you'll see Drummer getting a feat too many when he gets an even rogue level. In these cases, Drummer used the Rogue talent to get that feat.

Kitsune Unchained Rogue 16 / Brawler (Fighter Archetype) 4

Rog 1: Sap Adept, Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Rog 3: Weapon Focus (Sap)
Rog 4: Agile Maneuvers
Rog 5: Sap Master
Rog 6: Combat Expertise
Rog 7: Improved Dirty Trick
Rog 7 / Ftr 1: Quick Dirty Trick
Rog 7 / Ftr 2: Greater Dirty Trick, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Rog 8 / Ftr 2: Vital Strike
Rog 8 / Ftr 3: Swift Kitsune Shapechanger
Rog 10 / Ftr 3: Vulpine Pounce
Rog 10 / Ftr 4: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Cloak and Dagger Fighting
Rog 11 / Ftr 4: Cloak and Dagger 2
Rog 13 / Ftr 4: who knows
Rog 15 / Ftr 4: god who knows
Rog 16 / Ftr 4: Cloak and Dagger Tactics?

2 saps, (before Dex bonus) +16/16/11/11/6/6/1/1. (+1 Weapon Focus, + 1(and +3 dmg) from Close Combatant (Brawler thing))

bite (also before dex bonus) +14, if in kitsune form.

As for Rogue Talents: anything that augments Sneak Attack is cool. Crippling Strike, especially, is nice (lets you deal 2 Str damage when you make a sneak attack). With that in effect, on top of the regular damage, our pal Drummer will be dishing out 14 Strength damage per round, on top of everything else!

Cloak and Dagger Style, and its prerequisites (Weapon Focus and Vital Strike) are not necessary to the concept either. One could replace them with something else if they preferred.

Anyway, that's the build. Thoughts?

tl;dr: You can use Quick Dirty Trick to make a whole bunch of sneak attacks in one round, without needing anybody else to set it up. With Sap Master, you can double that damage for some spectacular numbers. With Vulpine Charge, you can even do it as the attack from a charge.

[Saldiven]

My only concern is that the average AC for a CR 16 creature is 31. Your first two attacks only hit on a 15. Everything else only hits on a 20. This would improve a bit if you can manage to get the blind effect off (keep in mind, many creatures of CR 16 or so don't get much of their armor class from sources removed by the Blind condition), but...

You don't list your CMB for this character to get off the Dirty Trick, but it would need to be pretty stout. The Monster Creation charts don't give an average CMD per CR, but the four CR16 creatures from the original Bestiary have CMD of 45, 45, 44, and 40.

The concept is interesting, but you're going to need some serious investment in equipment and buffing to get your offense to consistently beat a CR-equivalent foe's defenses.

Edit:

Oh, darn. I just realized you're talking about a 20th level character (I was distracted by the Rogue 16 entry). The defenses are even more stout.

As submitted, without additional modifiers from equipment and buffs, you're only hitting a CR 20 creature on a 20 with all of your attacks.

CMD for CR 20 creatures from the original Bestiary are all 53+.

Conclusion:

I think you're going to have to flesh this build out more with full stats and equipment to show that you can consistently get the Dirty Trick to stick and that you can hit with a reasonable number of your attacks.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Sap Master only works when your opponent is Flatfooted, and while Blinded, you lose your Dex Mod, but that is not quite the same thing as being Flatfooted.

Sap Adept still works, though, and even without Sap Master, it's still pretty dynamite. And since you are talking about Pounce, perhaps this is only for a charge, anyway.

Consider a dip into Arcanist. Even a 1 level dip can get you Dimensional Slide, a 10' teleport that doesn't leave you disoriented, and that can help you lock in Flanking, and therefore lock in Sneak Attack Damage.

If you use Cornudgeon Smash and Shatter Defenses, you can make your opponent Flatfooted. Shatter Defenses (pre)requires Dazzling Diaplay, with is also pretty good sometimes.

I'm partial to using Hamatula Strike and getting a free Grapple with every hit, and then, wearing Armor Spikes, doing extra damage, and since the Grapple is a different attack, the Armor Spikes with do Sneak Attack Damage, too.

There is a Rogue Talent, Distracting Attack, which does make opponents Flatfooted, but if you take it, you can only use it to make your victim flatfooted to one of your allies, not to yourself. I don't know how to give Distracting Attack to a Familiar or Animal Companion. You could take Leadership and make your Rogue Cohort take it.

[Joe Lai]

first of all this is not cheesay, second of all its a rogue. still lost.
how are you planning on getting to level 20 with all those high level monsters that are simple immune to sneak attack.
sorry i sound harsh, but this build is not new, never one had fantasized about it.

[Bob Bob Bob]

So, a few things you can do to improve this. Scout archetype gets flat-footed on charges or if you move more than 10 feet (but the second one specifies "attack action" and then says only once per round). You're taking fighter to 4, might as well throw in Weapon Specialization. There's probably a magic item or two you can find to give you more natural attacks.

That being said, this isn't particularly cheesy. No cheesier than any rogue getting as many attacks as possible for sneak attack (i.e. every dual-wielding rogue ever), and less cheesy than a paladin doing the same thing (since smite works on all damage rolls, leading to smiting magic missile). Oh, and far less cheesy than the monktopus.

It's, at best, a one trick pony. One that relies on both precision damage and nonlethal damage, two things which are most definitely not guaranteed. Weirdly, I think there are more things immune to nonlethal than there are to precision. Your damage gets cut in half the second you start doing lethal damage. In addition, as others have pointed out, you need real CMB numbers because your original plan absolutely requires that you land that first Dirty Trick, since Quick Dirty Trick is 1/round and you have no other way of getting sneak attack. All of your damage numbers assume everything hits, by the fourth iterative that's unlikely, without real numbers I'd say even the third iteratives are out (which cuts your damage approximately in half).

Basically, you posted an idealized scenario in which everything works and everything hits, and that's not particularly useful or relevant. If the build needs only natural 20s to function, it's not a great build. It's like posting "hey, I've got this great build that can do XXXX damage in a round! Just grab a Vorpal weapon and get a nat 20 you confirm against <monster with highest HP who dies when it loses its head>". Weirdly, that's actually possible with a Fighter 20 and Cyclops Helm, but that's neither here nor there.

[Sumutherguy]

Your build might be helped by the Surprise Manuever feat, which adds bonuses to those dirty tricks, and either the Skulking Slayer Rogue Archetype or Bounty Hunter Slayer which both do the same. (and end up with 2x your number of SA dice to dirty tricks when combined with that feat)

Thing is, once you buff up your dirty tricks enough to be reliable, you might as well keep going and make yourself into a dedicated debuffer. With the previously mentioned tools and/or Debilitating Injury and dirty trick style feats you can make your rogue able to incapacitate without even having to deal damage. Sap Master looks great on paper, but is really only usable consistently in sniper or enforcer-intimidate builds.

[Deighton Thrane]

You could also go the 2 weapon feint/greater feint route. It should be a lot easier to land than a combat maneuver.

[UnArcaneElection]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

{. . .}

Consider a dip into Arcanist. Even a 1 level dip can get you Dimensional Slide, a 10' teleport that doesn't leave you disoriented, and that can help you lock in Flanking, and therefore lock in Sneak Attack Damage.
{. . .}

If you're going to do that, you'll want to use that to cast True Striek before your first attack, to boost the attack roll to get through your opponent's CMD. Not sure if it will be enough, though.

[Scott Wilhelm]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

{. . .}

Consider a dip into Arcanist. Even a 1 level dip can get you Dimensional Slide, a 10' teleport that doesn't leave you disoriented, and that can help you lock in Flanking, and therefore lock in Sneak Attack Damage.
{. . .}

If you're going to do that, you'll want to use that to cast True Striek before your first attack, to boost the attack roll to get through your opponent's CMD. Not sure if it will be enough, though.

If you are only taking 1 level in Arcane Trickster, you only sacrifice +1 BAB to quite reliably deny opponents Dex Mods to AC and also to make Ranged Touch Attacks.

And if, as I suggested, you will be making Ranged Touch Attacks vs. Flatfooted AC, that will usually be enough even without True Strike, and even if you are taking enough levels in Arcanist to go Arcane Trickster and letting you BAB lag significantly.

That being said, True Strike is awesome. I'd take True Strike with levels in Alchemist and take the Potion Glutton Feat, allowing me to take Alchemal Mutagens and Extracts and use Drunken Ki all as Swift Actions!

[Imbicatus]

Joe Lai wrote:

how are you planning on getting to level 20 with all those high level monsters that are simple immune to sneak attack.

There really aren't that many monsters immune to sneak attack. Oozes, Elementals, Swarms, and some proteans. The biggest offenders in 3.5 were undead and constructs, which can be sneak attacked now.

Granted, there are a lot of elementals in the game, but sneak attack effects far more than it used to.

[In My Humble Opinion]

I've seen this posted a few times. I've never seen it tried because it's so incredibly all-or-nothing. You're either doing ok, or you're useless.

[DM Darth Loof]

How naive of me to think I had a good build going. Really the only thing I can say in its defense is that some posters seem to be forgetting that the to-hit numbers are before dex modifiers (don't ask me why I did that, it was late), so we can mentally add +5 to each one of those.

Still, after looking at everybody's suggestions, it looks like a Shatter Defenses build is just straight-up a better direction in every way. Just 4 feats to get off the ground - Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cornugeon Smash, Shatter Defenses - you can be setting up your own sneak attacks as soon as you hit BAB +6. And no need for CMD checks either. Better yet, Shatter Defenses makes people actually flat-footed, so Sap Master would actually function reliably in this build. And then TWF as normal.

Also, can we take a moment to talk about the Ninja's Invisible Blade technique? 1 round / level of Greater Invisibility for 1 ki point? Like I get that the Roguish types need all the mechanical help they can get (y'all have driven that one home for me), but it really seems like when you hit that point you'll never have to spend a round visible again. Kind of guarentees that you'll be sneak attacking forever, which funnily enough makes the vanilla ninja *way* more powerful than the Unchained Rogue. As far as I can tell, anyway.

So in my revised build, I'm thinking Ninja 10 (with the Shatter Defenses build), immediately grab Invisible Blade, and then 10 levels of whatever. Maybe more ninja? Slayer (for their BAB progression)? Maybe I'd take a dip in Arcanist and get Arcane trickster?

I don't know. Are there better ways to be reliably getting sneak attacks?

[ProfPotts]

The simplest way to get Sneak Attacks in is the good old flanking buddy. Hirelings are cheap (3sp per day for a trained hireling) but there are lots of options: say, a Vivisectionist Alchemist (for the Sneak Attack) with a tumor familiar (the tumor is diminutive or tiny, but technically there's no RAW saying that it can't turn into a small sized familiar like a goat or pig to flank for you - check with your GM first, of course). Or, you know, hope that there's at least one team player in your group's melee combatants!

[UnArcaneElection]

If you want something tougher than an affordable hireling, consider an Animal Companion. One way to get this is the Nature Soul --> Animal Ally --> Boon Companion feat chain; another is to take 4 levels of Cavalier first and then get the Horsemaster feat (to maintain full progression of your Animal Companion; this feat requires the Expert Trainer class feature gained at 4th level of Cavalier); unfortunately, Huntmaster Cavalier (which would be what you REALLY want for this) replaces Expert Trainer, and I don't think the replacement ability qualifies for Horsemaster, so you're stuck with a horse or similar creature if you are Medium; if you are Small, you could get a Riding Dog which could do the doggy/wolfy stuff you want (Trip).

[ProfPotts]

Remember that you don't need your flanking buddy to actually attack, just to threaten. A level 1 Warrior has proficiency with a tower shield, and a tower shield used for cover only counts as cover against attacks vs. the tower shield user: i.e. the tower shield user still threatens past the 'cover' of the shield. So your level 1 hireling can just stand there taking standard actions to claim cover each round, and still count as a flanking buddy.

For an added bonus, hire Warriors who take the Shield Wall Feat and take that Feat yourself - then you can stand behind their cover and plink ranged attacks at the bad guys from safety too. This is why level 1 human Wizards can do worse than taking the Shield Proficiency and Shield Wall Feats and spending a few spare gp on hiring themselves a phalanx...

[Scott Wilhelm]

The problem with Dirty Tricks is that it making your opponents Blind--no Dex to AC--is really good, but not as good as being Flatfooted for the purposes of heaping on the Sneak Attack Damage.

The problem with Shatter Defenses is that it takes more actions to make your opponent Flatfooted. If you are using Cornudgeon Smash, it takes 1 attack to make your opponent Shaken, and then 1 to make your opponent Flatfooted, and then your 3rd attack gets the heaped-on SAD. Or, you can use Dazzling Display, a prerequisite for Shatter Defenses, and make all opponents within 30' Shaken as a Full Round Action, then tear into into them the following round to make them Flat Footed then start heaping on the SAD.

There are class choices to look at. The Bounty Hunter Archetype of Slayer, the Skulking Slayer Half Orc Rogue Archetype, and the Pit Fighter Prestige Class. All of them get special abilities surrounding the Dirty Trick Maneuver.

ProfPotts wrote:

The simplest way to get Sneak Attacks in is the good old flanking buddy. Hirelings are cheap

UnArcaneElection suggested an Animal Companion.

I guess if you are considering an Animal Companion, you might as well also consider a Familiar. Some Familiar Archetypes are very powerful. Figment Familiars can't be killed. Protector Familiars give you tremendous benefits. Mauler Familiars are size Medium, good in combat, and grow stronger as you kill things. If you get your Familiar via levels in Beast Bonded Witch, you can give some of your Feats to your Familiar, and Polymorph into a creature like your familiar, say if you have a Compsagnathus Familiar, you can turn into a dinosaur yourself. If you have a Cenitpede or Crab familiar, you can turn into a Vermin. If you take levels in Fighter with the Eldritch Guardian Archetype, your Familiar automatically knows all the Combat Feats you know.

Still another option would be a Cohort. Take the Leadership Feat, and make yourself a Rogue Cohort with Distracting Attack. Your Cohort will use Distracting Attack to make your victims Flatfooted against your attacks.

Also, consider a build where you gain lots of Natural Attacks. Every extra Natural Attack you get is another Attack, and every extra Attack can give you more Sneak Attack Damage. Especially consider this if you are thinking of achieving of sacrificing 1-3 Attacks to make your opponent Blinded or Flatfooted. I have a lot of suggestions for getting lots of Natural Attacks if you want.