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In one of my gaming groups, a discussion about wands has repeatedly led to disagreement, and I'd like to get some more eyes on the subject to at least help me get it straight for my own piece of mind, because it seems that I'm not going to change any minds in the group.
RAW states that wands require a minimum spellcaster level of 5 to create them, but you also must be high enough in level to cast the spell into the wand. Now based upon this, I would think that, typically, you would find no magic wand with a caster level of less than 5. This idea is being disputed.
RAW also states that a wand creator can create a wand at a caster level less than what creator actually is, but why would you want to? It was suggested to me that this reduces cost of creation, but I could find nothing in CRB that specifically told me that.
So for example, a wand of cure light wounds is found. Said wand should cure no less than 1d8+5, based on what I've just outlined, since the creator of the wand had to be at least 5th level.
Am I missing something here?
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The cost of a wand is 375 * spell level * caster level, so there is excellent reason to use the minimum cast level for the spell in question, and wands are generally assumed to have been made that way unless clearly stated otherwise. So a wand of CLW is caster level 1 by default and heals 1d8+1. A CL 5 wand of CLW costs five times as much to make but doesn't heal five times as much.
Where does it say that reducing caster level reduces cost? And why wouldn't a wand of CLW created by a CL5, at CL5, heal at 1d8+5? If he casts the spell on wounded person, its not going to do less than that, so why would the wand?
It's in the cost formula as Fuzzy-Wuzzy stated, so you would create a wand at 1st level to save in cost. Considering you're only getting 4 more points of healing per charge for 1500 g.
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It would heal 1d8+5. But 1d8+5 is not five times as much as 1d8+1. Thus five CLW wands at CL 1 are a better investment than 1 CLW at CL 5.
A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower. A wand has 50 charges when created—each charge allows the use of the wand's spell one time. A wand that runs out of charges is just a stick. The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 750 gp. If the wand has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create once for each charge (50 × material component cost). Table: Wands gives sample prices for wands created at the lowest possible caster level for each spellcasting class. Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster crafting the wand.
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.
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Well, it looks like I was wrong. However, it seems to me that it eliminates fluff and flavor if every single CLW wand (for example) you find is geared towards a 1st level caster effect (1d8+1). Surely there are spellcasters out there creating magic items that have money to throw away.
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I'm sure there are published adventures that have the occasional wand/potion/scroll at higher than default level, and the GM can always toss in as many as they like. And the PCs can choose to make them if they have the crafting feats, of course. For some spells it can be worth it.
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You can absolutely get a higher CL wand crafted if you need it. For instance, a wand of scorching ray would normally be only CL 3, but could be made at CL 7 to get that second ray. While it's not as efficient in terms of cost/ray, firing 2 at once has its own advantages. Likewise, a CLW wand of a higher CL is less efficient in terms of cost/hp, but can heal faster, if that's important to you.
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RAW states that wands require a minimum spellcaster level of 5 to create them, but you also must be high enough in level to cast the spell into the wand.
I don't believe this is actually the case. You are allowed access to the necessary spell through another magic item, for example, so I could take a half-full wand of enervation and use it to create a new wand at full capacity (although this would cost a shedload of money).
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You can absolutely get a higher CL wand crafted if you need it. For instance, a wand of scorching ray would normally be only CL 3, but could be made at CL 7 to get that second ray. While it's not as efficient in terms of cost/ray, firing 2 at once has its own advantages. Likewise, a CLW wand of a higher CL is less efficient in terms of cost/hp, but can heal faster, if that's important to you.
But I'd expect to see a CL 5 wand of cure serious wounds instead of a CL 5 wand of cure light, if healing faster is important to you. Or even a CL3 wand of cure moderate, which is roughly comparable in price to the CL 5 CLW wand but still heals more quickly.
There are some wands where it makes sense to make them at a higher-than-minimum caster level, fireball being an obvious choice. I don't think that CLW is one of them.
RAW states that wands require a minimum spellcaster level of 5 to create them, but you also must be high enough in level to cast the spell into the wand.I don't believe this is actually the case. You are allowed access to the necessary spell through another magic item, for example, so I could take a half-full wand of enervation and use it to create a new wand at full capacity (although this would cost a shedload of money).
Okay, explain that please. Don't you need a casting of the spell for each charge of the wand? OR in this case, 1-1 charge per charge?
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Okay, explain that please. Don't you need a casting of the spell for each charge of the wand? OR in this case, 1-1 charge per charge?
RAW states that wands require a minimum spellcaster level of 5 to create them, but you also must be high enough in level to cast the spell into the wand.I don't believe this is actually the case. You are allowed access to the necessary spell through another magic item, for example, so I could take a half-full wand of enervation and use it to create a new wand at full capacity (although this would cost a shedload of money).
No, but in order to shutdown any loopholes for spells with expensive components you need to pay add the cost of the expensive component x 50 to the price.
If the wand has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create once for each charge (50 × material component cost).
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Okay, explain that please. Don't you need a casting of the spell for each charge of the wand? OR in this case, 1-1 charge per charge?
RAW states that wands require a minimum spellcaster level of 5 to create them, but you also must be high enough in level to cast the spell into the wand.I don't believe this is actually the case. You are allowed access to the necessary spell through another magic item, for example, so I could take a half-full wand of enervation and use it to create a new wand at full capacity (although this would cost a shedload of money).
You need one casting per day you work on the wand. Under normal circumstances, it takes one day per 1,000 gp value, so a 4th level wand would take a wizard 21 days to make and burn 21 castings of the relevant spell. But after three weeks, you have spent 21 charges to get a new magic wand with 50 charges.
It's of course easier and cheaper in the long run to make a one/day spell-in-a-can wondrous item of the spell and use it to power your wand factory.
More normally, I will see someone save their last wand charge of a level 1 spell to make a new wand when they get a downtime day. (A 750 gp level 1 wand can be made in a single day.)
ETA: and, yes, as wraithstrike pointed out, this doesn't apply to material components; you will still need fifty things of bat guano for your wand of fireball, or more importantly, fifty sets of magical reagents for a wand of masterwork transformation or fifty onyx gems for a wand of animate dead. Guano is cheap (essentially free) and can be handwaved away, but the gems are still an issue.
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I've learned something new and useful today. Thank you.
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EDIT: HOLY GUACAMOLE, was I ever ninja'd! TOO BAD: YOU ALL GOTTA READ THIS, SUCKAS~! (Unless you don't, in which case, you didn't.)
Magic item stuff!
Yay!
Alright, let's look at this!
First, a list of potential resources
Now, on to the OP:
RAW states that wands require a minimum spellcaster level of 5 to create them, but you also must be high enough in level to cast the spell into the wand. Now based upon this, I would think that, typically, you would find no magic wand with a caster level of less than 5. This idea is being disputed.
RAW also states that a wand creator can create a wand at a caster level less than what creator actually is, but why would you want to? It was suggested to me that this reduces cost of creation, but I could find nothing in CRB that specifically told me that.
So for example, a wand of cure light wounds is found. Said wand should cure no less than 1d8+5, based on what I've just outlined, since the creator of the wand had to be at least 5th level.
Am I missing something here?
This seems extremely reasonable, at first glance - and is, at first glance! - but it is missing a few details ().
First response:
The cost of a wand is 375 * spell level * caster level, so there is excellent reason to use the minimum cast level for the spell in question, and wands are generally assumed to have been made that way unless clearly stated otherwise. So a wand of CLW is caster level 1 by default and heals 1d8+1. A CL 5 wand of CLW costs five times as much to make but doesn't heal five times as much.
This is slightly incorrect (); but the formula is actually found in the Item Creation Feats section, on wands.
Raw Materials Cost: The cost of creating a magic item equals half the base price of the item.
<snip>
Wands: Base price = spell level × caster level × 750 gp
What that doesn't cover, however, is how you know the presumed default.
The presumed (RAW) default is actually found in the section on magic items about wands. There, it notes;
Table: Wands gives sample prices for wands created at the lowest possible caster level for each spellcasting class. Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster crafting the wand.
And,
Spell Level - Caster Level
1st -- -- -- -- 1st
... which answers the question. Most wands (or at least, certainly any that are randomly rolled via this table) will be CL 1st for a 1st level spell, despite the normal prerequisites found within.
The price given immediately below that is noted,
Spell Level - Cost <it's the same for all classes, in this case>
1st -- -- -- -- 750 gp
When we plug that into the calculation, you get,
Divide both sides by SL...
(750 gold * (CL?) * SL 1st)/() = 750 gold (CL,SL)/()
=>
(750 gold * (CL?) * SL 1st)/() = 750 gold (CL,SL)/()
=> leaving...
750 gold * (CL?) = 750 gold (CL)
... then we do so again, by gold...
(750 gold * (CL?))/() = 750 gold (CL)/()
=>
(750 gold * (CL?))/() = 750 gold->1 (CL)/()
=> leaving...
(CL?) = 1 CL
... showing that the presumed "when it's rolled up" is going to be a CL 1st. That will generate a 1d8+1 healing per charge with the example spell, cure light wounds, and would take 375 gold to craft or 750 gold to buy, new.
That said, it's worth noting that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a wand being higher than whatever CL it'd roll up as... it's just not necessarily as useful (though it could be). It mostly just depends on the spell in question.
Cure light wounds, for example, is pretty lousy to push to higher CLs, if only because it always deals 1d8+<CL> and it never surpasses a '+5' - what that means is that, at most, your CL benefit might equal the randomly generated portion. On average, you're going to get 4.5+CL (maximum +5, or 9.5) for your charge-uses... and it's really not guaranteed that you'll do that well (or that poorly). You could basically double your statistical average by multiplying the price by five, or five-to-two cost/benefit ratio... not a terribly reassuring return-rate.
On the other hand, say, alarm, is a great spell to put on higher CLs - because it serves a better investment for what you get. Alarm lasts two hours per level, so at caster level four, it lasts four times as long as level one, meaning it has a steady increase to what it does equal to the increase in price (and it's more useful for getting a good, secure sleep).
Things like shocking grasp are pretty ideal candidates for higher caster levels (maximizing at five), because they only deal dice/level (as opposed static dice+low modifier of cure), meaning your statistical average does increase equal to the cost... but things like true strike should never be higher than CL 1, as it does literally nothing for you.
Relevant to this whole thing, I think, is a sidebar in magic item creation rules; a FAQ answered by the PDT:
I looked over the magic item crafting rules and was unable to find an explicit statement on this question:
Does creating a magic item require the creator to be of the same or higher caster level of the item itself? This doesn't seem to square with the CLs listed for specific magic items; for instance, a Belt of Giant Strength +2 has CL 8th, but the only spell required in its creation, bull's strength, has a minimum caster level of 3.
Am I missing anything here?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level. However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st. For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
This seems to indicate that the caster level required for specific items is not necessarily strictly coupled with the caster level for other elements - at least not as strictly as it was once interpreted. That, to me, reads as pointing to the actual CL of a specific spell-effect as being related to the effect itself, rather than the requirement (or prerequisite for feats).
All that said... it's up to a local GM, as always. I feel the RAW has made a pretty solid (if scattered) case, but individual tables will vary.